Angels and miracle pregnancy cure in Surah Al-Imran

[Naushad]

Salaam alay kum,

I have couple of questions in relation to the verses below from surah Al-Imran.

3:40 Zechariah prayed to God, but then wondered, “My Lord! How could I have a son when old age has overtaken me already and my wife is barren?” He said, “So it will be, God does everything according to His laws.”

3:42 (Mary kept a spotless character as she grew up.) Angels told her, “God has chosen you, given you a spotless character and given you distinction among the women of your times.”
[She guarded her chastity and built a strong moral character in very adverse circumstances. Many monks and devotees of temples used to harbor evil intentions against nuns. She was the first revolutionary feminine voice against the manmade institution of monasticism]
3:43 She was told by angels to gather courage, quit monasticism, submit to the command of her Lord and join her family for leading a normal life bowing to the design that God has ordained for people.

My two main questions are:
1. In 3:40 and 21:90, how is it possible that the infertility of Zechariah's wife was cured automatically? What is the explanation for this if we follow the rule that God does not change his laws of nature for anybody otherwise this falls under the category of miracles. Were there other known circumstances that cured her such as getting some sort of health/pregnancy related treatment?

2. In 3:42 and 3:43, I dont understand why Mary is talking to Angels if Angels are forces of nature. This translation makes sense if we think of Angels in N2I mentality but does not make sense to me if Angels are forces of nature.

Your clarification will be appreciated.

Thank you,
Naushad.

[Arnold Yasin Mol]

Salaam Naushad,

One of the main mistakes people make while reading the Quran is not understanding that the Quran skips time in unknown amounts.

Where does it say his wife was cured immediately? Where do you get this timeframe from?

Was Mary pregnant for 9 months or 10 minutes since it are only 6 verses that talk about the pregnancy? I hope you understand my point.

With the story of Zacheria it doesn't say that his wife is cured through miracles. Zacheria was just surprised that at his late age it was still possible to have a child, but also that there was still a possibility for his wife to be cured. He thought it was impossible, due to his limited knowledge of the possibilities in Allah's Creation. In 3:40 he is just surprised there is still a possibility that his wife can bare children. It is Zacheria who is suggesting that it is not possible, while he cannot know all the possibilities that were there. Allah does know all possibilities, and thus say that through His Will, which is presented through His Laws, she can still bare a child.

There were many herbcures that could have helped her that they had never tried, treatments known to other nations and so on.

The same is with Mary where she is surprised to be chosen to bare a child, while in reality she thought she would be a nun the rest of her life. She asks how can I have a child?

Allah answers with that His Will, which is expressed through His Laws, gives her the possibility to leave the Temple and get married. Which she does as explained in the verses after it. Mary believed it was Allah's Will to remain a nun, but Allah says she must submit to Allah's Laws and not to man-made ones. So her surprise was because of her misunderstanding of what really Allah's Laws were. So the surprise of people is about the possibilities in Allah's Creation or that they believed man-made laws to be Allah's Laws, and thus they were surprised that He suggested otherwise. The Quran is a simple and a clear Message, but your interpretation is determined by your approach. The verse can mean anything, but most approach it with pre-conceived ideas. Most believe Allah was saying in verse 3:40 that He cured through a miracle Zacheria's wife, while Zacheria is only surprised that there still is a possibility for her to be cured. The majority approaches the verses already as:

1.Zacheria's wife was incurable.

2.Only a miracle could save her.

3.Thus Allah deviates from His Laws to cure her.

While at the same time this is also possible:

1. Zacheria BELIEVED himself that his wife was incurable, this does not mean at all this is also true. This only shows that man doesn't always knows all possibilities.

2. Her infertility could be cured with medicines, no miracle needed. This is not excluded at all. This possibility is just completely ignored to sustain a miracle-belief.

3. Allah tells Zacheria that His Will has made endless possibilities in His Laws for humans to find cures and solutions to problems.

You see the difference of approach? People must ask themselves why they first went for the Miracle-approach, instead of first using the reasonable approach. Why exclude the normal possibilities? Ask yourself this carefully. It is not a crime for not seeing my approach, as your mind is formed through the Collective approach to certain subjects.

http://ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=501


Malikah means "The ones that have authority and power over a realm", this is a description not a title, so if we want to understand these verses let's translate the words:

3:42 (Mary kept a spotless character as she grew up.) The ones that have authority and power told her, “God has chosen you, given you a spotless character and given you distinction among the women of your times.

3:43 She was told by The ones that have authority and power to gather courage, quit monasticism, submit to the command of her Lord and join her family for leading a normal life bowing to the design that God has ordained for people.

Now we have translated it and gain a better picture of what the story tells us. It seems she was told by people who have authority over what they were saying, meaning they communicated with God, making them messengers.

See also:

3:124 Remember when you said unto the believers, “Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should help you with three thousand angels, sent down to your hearts?”

This Dr.Shabbir's understanding of the verse, which is indeed a good understanding, but I believe there is also another explanation, the 3000 for me shows there is more to it. As said before, Malikah means something with power and authority, and in the above verse it is about engaging in battle. So the power and authority refers to having these in battle. How? Well the Quran prepared them for battle, and made them powerfull:

4:71 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Be fully prepared against danger. You shall remain alert to meet aggression. Take your precautions then mobilize in groups or all together as determined by your commander.

8:60 Make ready for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize so that you may deter the enemies of Allah, and your enemies. And others beside them whom you know not, Allah knows them. Whatever wealth and effort you spend on your defenses, will be your spending in the Cause of Allah, and it will be repaid to you generously. And you shall not be wronged.

47:4 Now if you meet the disbelievers in battle, then, strike at their command centers. Until, when you have subdued them, then, bind them firmly...



9:5 When the four Sacred Months are over and if the idolaters are still aggressing, (neither becoming law-abiding citizens of the State, nor emigrating), subdue them whichever tribe they may belong to, take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush....

4:102 O Messenger! When you are with them and establish the congregations of prayers for them, let some of you stand guard, and let them hold their weapons standing with you as you prostrate. Then let the other group who has not prayed take their turn praying with you, while the others stand guard and hold their weapons. The disbelievers wish to see you neglect your weapons and equipment, and ambush you once and for all. You commit no error, if you are hampered by rain or injury, by putting down your weapons. But always be fully prepared against danger. Verily, Allah has readied a humiliating suffering for those who deny the Truth.

So it is the Muslims themselves who were Malikah, ones with authority and power in battle. There are more verses I believe Malikah is used for powerfull humans. For example with the story of Mary and Zacheria and Abraham, where Malikah were humans with great authority. who, through Revelation, could tell them what Allah had in store for them. This is why also the word Malikah comes from the same root as Malik, Master or King. This is why Allah says in the Quran:

6:9 If We sent an angel to them, We would have sent him in the form of a man (so that he could live with them and speak to them), and the truth would remain obscure as it is to them now.

As the most people have a mythological idea on Malikah, it is refuted in the Quran. This maybe also refer that the Prophet himself is also a Malikah, a being with authority and control through Revelation.

http://19.org/index.php?id=91,552,0,0,1,0

[Sidqi]

Salam,

In my humble opinion and with little sense, i would say that its not right to over dig each and every ayet.

Allah said. I made Quran easy.
And since it is for all mankind, mostly masses. So to derive complicated results is'nt logical.

Surah Mariam is one of the simplest.
1. It clearly tells that mrs Zacharia was (Only) old, and not sick. so why look for cure from Angels. Even today some old wemen at 70 plus may be pregnant. Infrtilty is 'not a full stop , but a slow decreasing ova prodcution. and its difficult to measure for sure. So late pregnancy is very much normal.
Zacharia(as) was amazed, because of late timing only.

2. Maryam was'nt married. Some one came and inform her of pregnancy, she herself was amazed, as she was'nt touched and felt ashamed. So it was a Heavenly job and very much clearly explained. Now cloning and stem cells technology are common practises. A human prodcution is possible with just few cells.

19:20 She said, "How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me? For, never have I been a loose woman!” (3:46, 19:28).

Sidqi. ca

[Sidqi]

Historical references
One early reference to an aged mother can be found in the Bible, where Sarah is described as having given birth to her husband Abraham's son, Isaac, at the age of 90.

An unverified record is that of Margaret Krasiowa (1655-1763) of Konin, Poland, who is said to have married her third husband in her 94th year of life and borne two sons and a daughter by him during their 14 years of marriage.[1]

Sidqi

[Arnold Yasin Mol]

Salaam Sidqi,

Yes the Quran is easy, follow His words:

48:23 This is God’s law that has been in force since older times. And you will never find any change in God’s laws. [Sunnatillah = God’s laws in practice. Kalimatillah = God’s Word = God’s laws in theory 3]

Thus God would not have changed normal procedure of birth by interffering into the Creation. Why would He need to create miracles when we have the Universe as witness for His power?

Why can't it just much simpler by seeing the verse for what it says?

She just says she wasn't touched yet by a man, not married and she didn't had any plans yet also because of being raised in the TEMPLE.

To believe these verses say she had a child without copulation is taking a long detour of simple thinking.

And by the way, in Zacheria's time, most people did not get any older then 40. Let me repeat, most people did not get older then 40.

Having a child at 35 was seen as weird as you would be reaching death very soon.

This is why Sarah also reacts as thus when she heard the news of a child, me a child? But I am already 35-40! I am to old to have a child!!

CONTEXT PEOPLE CONTEXT, READ THE VERSES IN THE CONTEXT OF THEIR TIME AND SITUATION!!

In the time of Abraham and Zacheria, people rarely passed 60, very rarely.

We read these verses with the current age-limit in our mind. Today, 70 is old, 80 or 90. In their time 40 was already old.

The Quran does not uphold fairy tales or nonsense. Please tell me one purpose for miralces???

Why would God need to break the Laws He had created Himself?

Isn't that asking the architect to demolish the house he just build to prove he is the architect?

In the words of Paul Davies, the famous Astro-physicist in his book "The Goldilock Dilemma"says:

"A God that needs to break His laws constantly, performing miracles and do micro-managment on the creation does not look like a smart God to me, like He is working with a broken machine all the time, a God that uses His laws that He has fixed, and He doesn't need to interfere in the Creation anymore after He has started it, that indeed is a Intelligent Designer to me!"

So ask yourselves again. Do you demand miracles from God? Does He need to deviate from His Laws for you to be convinced, or is His creation enough for you? Do you believe His fixed Laws, which are so precisely calculated that deviating from it, even if it is 0,000000000000000001th of the Planck constant, we would not exist; are enough for you to see the Almighty wisdom and Power of Allah? I have shown to you all the proofs of what the Quran really says, and that it all confirms and coincides with the Laws of Nature.



Will you see then and understand and say:



3:191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how Allah’s Laws operate in the Universe.) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they observe, and reflect upon Allah's creation of the Heavens and the Earth and wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire.” (When humans harness the forces of Nature and use them for the common good of all, they move away from Hell and close to Paradise in both lives 45:13-14).

[Sidqi]

Dear Arnold Yaseen Salam,

Thank you for a very logical reply.

As per laws of physics you are right that universal laws are fixed and there is no such thing as Miracle, there had never been. But many Laws are very complex and chaotic and so far we do not understand every thing. When we do not understand some thing, a common man call it miracle. For example. Birth of more than one or quadruple is also a technical miracle. It is not normal but we do not question it, since we found out that an ova cell gets split during fertilization. So far we hav’nt understood birth of Jesus or don’t want to discuss it. One day we will find out that a birth is possible without copulation. Already we are ahead on cloning or stem cell discoveries.

I totally believe Quran that Maryam was not married. She was definitely not. During her pregnancy, She was embarrassed and was suggested to go far under a palm tree. Later Jesus, while an infant spoke to surprised inquirers ( Maryam 19-31). How she got pregnant. One day medical science will find out possiblities, and its not very far. To me its an unopend medical knot.

I totally agree with you that man is obliged to find every thing in universes. Already we are looking at mars with intention to land there in 25 years. Already we have a permanent space station ISS in place. You and me are communicating instantly across the globe. Average human age is increasing constantly. Hence man is doing well as per 3:191. Those who are in advance sciences will tell us that world has advanced at a amazing pace in last century. Credit goes to west and their universities.

Sidqi. Ca

[Arnold Yasin Mol]

Salaam dear Sidqi,

You say you totally believe the Quran, we all do here. But from your reply it is clearly shown that you have missed out some very important verses and Arabic knowledge that will enlighten the concept a bit better.

First of all does the Quran absolutely NOT say Mary had a child without having intercourse. The ONLY thing we know is that when she was TOLD she will have a child in the future, that she wasn't married or had intercourse yet.

This is very important, we do NOT know how old Mary was when this was told to her. Maybe she was 10 or 14, how can we know since the Quran did not tell us any timeframe, it only has given us fragments, snapshots of some moments in the story?

So your conclusion is not only farfetched, it is completely based on the Christian doctrine of Virgin birth. You use the Christian doctrine as the criterion to read this story. May I surprise you dear Sidqi, the Bible clearly says Jesus had a father called Joseph.

The Christian doctrine of Virgin birth originated 150 years later after Jesus through Roman-pagan influence, the first Christians never believed this, we can see this in their beliefs and the Letters of Paul and so on.

But also very important, you have missed some verses in the Quran that clearly mention Jesus having a father:

1. The Quran clearly says Jesus had a father as he is mentioned in a list of Prophets which fathers are blessed:

In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as: ".... And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that:

6:88 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.

In the verse 6:88, the Arabic words ".... Wa min aaba ihim..." is critical. Let me break down the words: Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means .... And from among their fathers....

Muslim scholars are in jeopardy with this statement from Allah. They desperately try to justify their faith that Jesus did not have a father. So now they start twisting the meaning and interpretation. At this time I want to emphasize that if Jesus did not have a father then the verse 6:88 should not have included his name or should have specifically stated that illa Isa or except Isa. Or would you say it was an oversight (nauzubillah!) on part of Allah!!! If the argument is that some HAD fathers, then which other prophet did not have a father? Can you tell me who was born without a father other than Jesus?

There are several other prophets whose fathers are not specifically mentioned in the Qur-an , for example, Nuh, Dawud, Ayyub, Musa, Harun, Zakariya, whose name exists in the list of 18 prophets in the above verses. Even though we don’t find the mention of fathers of these prophets we believe these prophets did have fathers. But in case of Jesus we make the exception that he did not have a father. We make this exception because the Christian teachings tell us that Jesus did not have a father, although time and again Bible refers to his father as a person named Joseph.

Muslims are more interested to uphold the Biblical statement at the cost of the Quranic declaration.


2. In verse 3:59, Jesus is compared to Adam. The amazing thing is, that Adam here is the PRESENT tense, meaning that it refers to a PRESENT Adam.

One of the meanings of Adam in Arabic is HUMAN. Thus, the Quran clearly says that Jesus was born as any human, meaning out of father and mother.

If Jesus was born in a strange way like some sort of natural cloning, why would the Quran say Jesus was born as any human?

Are we born through natural or unnatural cloning? NO

See Muhammed Asad's commentary:

3: 59 Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is.* (3: 60) the truth from thy Sustainer; be not, then, among the doubters!

*Lit., "The parable of Jesus is as the parable of Adam...", etc. The expression mathal (rendered above as "nature") is often metaphorically employed to denote the state or condition (of a person or a thing), and is in this sense - as the commentators have pointed out - synonymous with sifah (the "quality" or "nature" of a thing).

As is evident from the sequence, the above passage is part of an argument against the Christian doctrine of the divinity of Jesus. The Qur'an stresses here, as in many other places, the fact that Jesus, like Adam - by which name, in this context, the whole human race is meant - was only a mortal "created out of dust", i.e., out of substances, both organic and inorganic, which are found in their elementary forms on and in the earth. Cf. also 18:37, 22:5, 30:20, 35:11, 40:67, where the Qur'an speaks of all human beings as "created out of dust".

That "Adam" stands here for the human race is clearly implied in the use of the present tense in the last word of this sentence.


In 19:22-23 Mary is shown grieving, then talking to her husband. Although married, they made a violation of the normal sanctuary rules, as she became pregnant in the non-holy months, so she fled the temple for a while and labor pains all add to her grief which she is expressing. This is why her family acted so offended in 19:27, and said she had done wrong by breaking the custom as she was part of a Royal Family. This is why they remind her of her lineage. In 19:28 she is said to have done bagiyaa, which means to go beyond the bounds of custom. All royal couples were expected to only procreate in specific months, so that their offspring would be born in Jewish Holy months. Sex outside of these months were seen as a grave offence. In 19:25 we are told Jesus was born when the dates are ripe. In Palestine this means between late September and early October. This period falls outside of the Jewish Holy Months as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls are writings of the Nazarene Temple where Mary lived and Jesus was part of. The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden before the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, and were found in 1945. These Scrolls are untampered and did not go through a long chain of oral tradition or rewritings. So they give a complete and authentic report of the Nazerene customs and beliefs.

Now a few more important concepts given in the Qur’an that strongly negate the fallacy of the “virgin birth” of Jesus:
Allah does all things according to His Laws (3:40,19:9)
You will never find Allah’s Laws changing or deviating (6:34, 6:116, 10:64, 17:77, 18:27, 33:38, 33:62, 35:43, 40:85, 48:23)
The example of Jesus, as far as God is concerned, is the same as that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be!", and he was (3:59)
The word kun only implies a certainty of the Decree, it doesn’t apply at all it will go against the Laws of Creation.
By Adam is meant all mankind (7:11)
All humans are created from dust, then from a zygote, the union of male and female gametes.
(53:46, 76:2 and many more)
God won’t have an offspring since He never had a mate (6:101).

Verse 19:22 narrates of Mary moving far off from her village. Since Mary had broken the normal rules of the shrine, she and her family kept the pregnancy confidential.

Although married, they made a violation of the normal sanctuary rules, as she became pregnant in the non-holy months, so she fled the temple for a while and labor pains all add to her grief which she is expressing. This is why her family acted so offended in 19:27, and said she had done wrong by breaking the custom as she was part of a Royal Family. This is why they remind her of her lineage. In 19:28 she is said to have done bagiyaa, which means to go beyond the bounds of custom.

19:28 “O Sister of Aaron! Your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother a loose woman=bagiyaa, nor did she ever oppose the system=bagiyaa."

All royal couples were expected to only procreate in specific months, so that their offspring would be born in Jewish Holy months. Sex outside of these months were seen as a grave offence. In 19:25 we are told Jesus was born when the dates are ripe. In Palestine this means between late September and early October. This period falls outside of the Jewish Holy Months as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls are writings of the Nazarene Temple where Mary lived and Jesus was part of. The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden before the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, and were found in 1945. These Scrolls are untampered and did not go through a long chain of oral tradition or rewritings. So they give a complete and authentic report of the Nazerene customs and beliefs.

And also the people accusing her of 'bagiyaa' are the same people who believe given a child to the Temple is a thing that would please Allah. This is why you should always analyze who says something and how the Quran describes such person's belief, before you can understand why the person says it.

[matinbhagat]

Salam, the answer to this topic on mary whether she had a spouse or not is best answered with 6:101. If ALLAH himself says how can he have a son when hev never had a mate, means mary is not greater than Allah to bypass his laws, and it also doubles up to imply Allah never breaks his own laws once they have been set. Thus if we say mary had no spouse and had a child, it is in clear cut violation of this verse despite ALLAH clearly mentioning this using his supreme self as an example.