Salam,
I was readng sura al feel and have a few questions. Firstly i notice the mention of the history pertaining to this story and how the sura is interpreted with regards to the historical information deemed accurate.
105:4
Then you showered them with hard stones earmarked with requital. [Sijjeel = Inscribed = Marked out]
First thing I want to find out if this verse has a YOU in it?It mentions then YOU showered, however on comparing with other translations I dunt seem to find the YOU there. If the you isnt there then it appears that the stones of clay are linked to the birds perhaps?Furthermore, as the quran explains itself, why the excessive focus on interpreting this sura with regards to historical information that can be inaccurate?Jus some questions that rose in my mind and I want to clarify. Of course if the YOU is mentioned clearly it could be a reminder of a historical narration as such, but otherwise reference to the birds may imply something deeper or something we have yet to grasp in totality?Salam and thanks for your time. My purpose is not to confuse anyone but to clarify my genuine thoughts and doubts as they came to my mind upon reading it.
Regards,
Jai
Explaining sura al feel??
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matinbhagat
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Explaining sura al feel??
Inna lillahi,wa inna ilayhi ra'jiun
To God we belong,To Him is the return!
To God we belong,To Him is the return!
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Mahmood Qasmi
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Explaining sura al feel??
as-salaam-u-alaikum,
First off dear brother, the QXP is not a literal translation but a Tasreef based rendition of the Quran. The Quran consistantly mentions that mind boggling/dazzling miracles is not the way of God. He has a set of laws that govern the universe. Given that, the idea propagated by the Abassids about God safeguarding the ka'bah is false and no magical firewall or stone showering birds exist or at least documented as occuring naturally (through His laws which are established WITHOUT exception). So this rules out any supernatural phenomenon that turned the tables dramatically the way described in N2I tradition.
In the literal sense, the word tarmeehim means "struck-them-by-throwing/cast-at-them" ... so if we were to indicate that Tairan abaabeel are the birds that showered people with stones, it would not make sense either way: In the instantaneous as well as in the context of the big picture of the Quran.
It is therefore that chapter 105 is rendered in this way...
First off dear brother, the QXP is not a literal translation but a Tasreef based rendition of the Quran. The Quran consistantly mentions that mind boggling/dazzling miracles is not the way of God. He has a set of laws that govern the universe. Given that, the idea propagated by the Abassids about God safeguarding the ka'bah is false and no magical firewall or stone showering birds exist or at least documented as occuring naturally (through His laws which are established WITHOUT exception). So this rules out any supernatural phenomenon that turned the tables dramatically the way described in N2I tradition.
In the literal sense, the word tarmeehim means "struck-them-by-throwing/cast-at-them" ... so if we were to indicate that Tairan abaabeel are the birds that showered people with stones, it would not make sense either way: In the instantaneous as well as in the context of the big picture of the Quran.
It is therefore that chapter 105 is rendered in this way...
Mahmood Qasmi
Toronto, Canada
Toronto, Canada
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Arnold Yasin Mol
Explaining sura al feel??
Salaam Aleikum dear Jai,
As Mahmut clearly stated, any supernatural approach to the Quran would be false, as it would then create contradictions with reality and the Quran does not contain any contradiction.
But the answer is much simpler, the grammar of Classic Arabic gives us the correct answer, let me quote Ahmed Ali and his amazing translation:
"If Tair were to mean birds, the "winged ones" symbolized "the lords of the mighty ones", "Wings" in Babylonian legends symbolized kings, as bulls with extended wings from Nineveh or Persopolis did the Assyrian king. And the stretching forth of the Assyrian monarch's WINGS meant the overspreadign of land by the "mighty ones" or the hosts of armed men (tairan ababeel) the king of Babylon employed for his overflowing invasion.
Besides, the language of verse 4 itself points to men throwing stones. THE T OF TARMIHIM REFERS TO "YOU" - YOU WERE STRIKING THEM WITH STONES; AND THE VERS 3 AND 4 ARE SEPERATED BY AN AYA, SIGN OF BOTH A PUNCTUATION AND PAUSE."
[Ahmed Ali; Al-Quran translation, commentary on Chapter 105]
Tair in classis Arabic was used for that went with great speed, it was thus also used for speeding horses in battle. It is amazing how Ahmed Ali understood this verse and how he connects it with the kings of the past. See the picture:
Babeel also means swarm or group in Arabic, and was also used for soldiers moving in groups, thus Tairan ababeel can be best understood as the group = babeel of cavalery = Tairan that was sent by the rulers = Tairan. But also as stones coming down in large volleys, just as birds coming down in flocks at a place of water to drink.
The Tarmeehim stands for shooting of stones or arrows at a particulair target by human beings. Birds could never throw stones in such a precise manner, and the word clearly intitles aiming a stone, and not just blindly throw it on a target.
Sijjil signifies burnt stones baked in a furnace. How could birds attain these? The whole language used in the verses reject the whole concept of real animal birds throwing stones, as they:
1. Cannot aim precisely.
2. They cannot bake stones in a furnace.
Plus, there have been inscriptions found by the army of Abraha, and they do not mention elephants and they are dated around 550AD and not 570AD. Plus, it is not possible to carry elephants through such a waterless desert while elephants need hard ground to walk, and not soft desert sand, and they need a lot of water and food. Thus I personally doubt the traditional story completely.
There are far better theories that refer that it is about the people of Lot, as the exact same words used, or that it is about the ancient people of Petra who had the Elephant as their symbol:
Thus my rendition would be more like this:
105:1 Are you not aware of how your Rabb, your Nourisher to Maturity, dealt with the Army of the
Elephant?
105:2 Did He not bring their strategy to utter failure?
105:3 And sent upon them the groups of commanders that controlled groups of cavalery, and they also sent swarms of arrows on them.
[Tairan babeel = groups of Tairan = group of cavalery = group of rulers/commanders = swarms of arrows. Tairan = Ones that fly/hasten = Destiny = Omen = Speeding troups or horses = swarms of arrows that come down as flocks of birds on a lake.]
105:4 Then you showered them with hard stones earmarked with requital and precisily aimed at them. [Sijjeel = Inscribed = Marked out = Baked in a furnace. Thus implying the use of catapults to shoot the baked stones at the enemy.]
105:5 And made them like a field of grain eaten down to stubble.
As you can see, the whole understanding of the Chapter talks about a great battle with cavalery, commanders of large troops and infrantry with bow and arrows and catapults. Thus the traditional story contradicts the Quran as it tells a far more important story that we still need to unlock further.
As Mahmut clearly stated, any supernatural approach to the Quran would be false, as it would then create contradictions with reality and the Quran does not contain any contradiction.
But the answer is much simpler, the grammar of Classic Arabic gives us the correct answer, let me quote Ahmed Ali and his amazing translation:
"If Tair were to mean birds, the "winged ones" symbolized "the lords of the mighty ones", "Wings" in Babylonian legends symbolized kings, as bulls with extended wings from Nineveh or Persopolis did the Assyrian king. And the stretching forth of the Assyrian monarch's WINGS meant the overspreadign of land by the "mighty ones" or the hosts of armed men (tairan ababeel) the king of Babylon employed for his overflowing invasion.
Besides, the language of verse 4 itself points to men throwing stones. THE T OF TARMIHIM REFERS TO "YOU" - YOU WERE STRIKING THEM WITH STONES; AND THE VERS 3 AND 4 ARE SEPERATED BY AN AYA, SIGN OF BOTH A PUNCTUATION AND PAUSE."
[Ahmed Ali; Al-Quran translation, commentary on Chapter 105]
Tair in classis Arabic was used for that went with great speed, it was thus also used for speeding horses in battle. It is amazing how Ahmed Ali understood this verse and how he connects it with the kings of the past. See the picture:
Babeel also means swarm or group in Arabic, and was also used for soldiers moving in groups, thus Tairan ababeel can be best understood as the group = babeel of cavalery = Tairan that was sent by the rulers = Tairan. But also as stones coming down in large volleys, just as birds coming down in flocks at a place of water to drink.
The Tarmeehim stands for shooting of stones or arrows at a particulair target by human beings. Birds could never throw stones in such a precise manner, and the word clearly intitles aiming a stone, and not just blindly throw it on a target.
Sijjil signifies burnt stones baked in a furnace. How could birds attain these? The whole language used in the verses reject the whole concept of real animal birds throwing stones, as they:
1. Cannot aim precisely.
2. They cannot bake stones in a furnace.
Plus, there have been inscriptions found by the army of Abraha, and they do not mention elephants and they are dated around 550AD and not 570AD. Plus, it is not possible to carry elephants through such a waterless desert while elephants need hard ground to walk, and not soft desert sand, and they need a lot of water and food. Thus I personally doubt the traditional story completely.
There are far better theories that refer that it is about the people of Lot, as the exact same words used, or that it is about the ancient people of Petra who had the Elephant as their symbol:
Thus my rendition would be more like this:
105:1 Are you not aware of how your Rabb, your Nourisher to Maturity, dealt with the Army of the
Elephant?
105:2 Did He not bring their strategy to utter failure?
105:3 And sent upon them the groups of commanders that controlled groups of cavalery, and they also sent swarms of arrows on them.
[Tairan babeel = groups of Tairan = group of cavalery = group of rulers/commanders = swarms of arrows. Tairan = Ones that fly/hasten = Destiny = Omen = Speeding troups or horses = swarms of arrows that come down as flocks of birds on a lake.]
105:4 Then you showered them with hard stones earmarked with requital and precisily aimed at them. [Sijjeel = Inscribed = Marked out = Baked in a furnace. Thus implying the use of catapults to shoot the baked stones at the enemy.]
105:5 And made them like a field of grain eaten down to stubble.
As you can see, the whole understanding of the Chapter talks about a great battle with cavalery, commanders of large troops and infrantry with bow and arrows and catapults. Thus the traditional story contradicts the Quran as it tells a far more important story that we still need to unlock further.
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Mahmood Qasmi
- Posts: 73
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Explaining sura al feel??
Brother Arnold,
I had tried to connect the dots to this chapter a while back and reached similar conclusion.
I always thought of Tairan Abaabeel as symbolism for God's Messengers (Lot, Hud and Salih) since birds such as pegions were used as messengers in ancient times, as also documented in Dr. Shabbir's books.
However, your explanation of Abaabeel and then Tair as a symbol for a nation with military might and then a historic battle using manjaneeq technology (showering backed/fiery/inscribed/marked-out stones) is much more feasible!
Well done Arnold!
I had tried to connect the dots to this chapter a while back and reached similar conclusion.
I always thought of Tairan Abaabeel as symbolism for God's Messengers (Lot, Hud and Salih) since birds such as pegions were used as messengers in ancient times, as also documented in Dr. Shabbir's books.
However, your explanation of Abaabeel and then Tair as a symbol for a nation with military might and then a historic battle using manjaneeq technology (showering backed/fiery/inscribed/marked-out stones) is much more feasible!
Well done Arnold!
Mahmood Qasmi
Toronto, Canada
Toronto, Canada
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matinbhagat
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:22 pm
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Explaining sura al feel??
Salam brother arnold,
thanks for the wonderful explanation. COuld you further explain to me the grammar in Tarmeehim, you mentioned the T implies you. Also tarmeehim comes from the word Rama?or does it come from some root word TRM?Also in 105:4 you mentioned aimed precisely, I would like to find out the arabic word denoting the precise aiming. THank you so much for your time and also for clarifying this sura. Perhaps this very much more feasible understanding could be incorporated into future QXP translations. Thank you brother qasmi too for your explanations.
Regards,
Jai
thanks for the wonderful explanation. COuld you further explain to me the grammar in Tarmeehim, you mentioned the T implies you. Also tarmeehim comes from the word Rama?or does it come from some root word TRM?Also in 105:4 you mentioned aimed precisely, I would like to find out the arabic word denoting the precise aiming. THank you so much for your time and also for clarifying this sura. Perhaps this very much more feasible understanding could be incorporated into future QXP translations. Thank you brother qasmi too for your explanations.
Regards,
Jai
Inna lillahi,wa inna ilayhi ra'jiun
To God we belong,To Him is the return!
To God we belong,To Him is the return!
-
Arnold Yasin Mol
Explaining sura al feel??
Aleikum Salaam,
Tarmihim comes from the root Ra-Miim-Ya = to throw, cast, hit by throwing, blame, cast on, charge.
The word Ramahu Allahi Bakana means God smote him with a disease. Of course this is not random throwing of diseases, but aimed directly at one person. Of course God doesn't do this as traditional thought may think, but it does already gives an explanation of the word.
Lane's Lexicon says on page 328:
Tar-mi-yaa = He shot, or cast, at the butts, and at
the trunks of trees.
Here is the singulair version of Tarmihim, where the definition of the word is, a person is shooting something at the trunks of a tree. Thus signifies aiming precisily to hit the trunk.
Tar-mi-yana and Aru-Tamayana means A group/We shot at another in a contest, again showing the definition of precisily aiming at the object, as it is used to define the act of aiming on such a high level, people do it during a contest of bow shooting.
Thus the whole definition of Ra-Mim-Ya refers to throw or cast something precisily unto an object.
Tar-Mi-Him thus directly means: A group of persons (you in plural) were shooting at something with the intention to precisily hitting it.
You must always look at ALL the words that come from the Root-word so you can understand the defintion of the word and in which situations it is used. The root meaning is To throw or cast, but when we explore the words coming from it, for 90% they refer to throwing something with precise precision. Thus the definition is correctly explained by the words.
I hope this answers your question.
Tarmihim comes from the root Ra-Miim-Ya = to throw, cast, hit by throwing, blame, cast on, charge.
The word Ramahu Allahi Bakana means God smote him with a disease. Of course this is not random throwing of diseases, but aimed directly at one person. Of course God doesn't do this as traditional thought may think, but it does already gives an explanation of the word.
Lane's Lexicon says on page 328:
Tar-mi-yaa = He shot, or cast, at the butts, and at
the trunks of trees.
Here is the singulair version of Tarmihim, where the definition of the word is, a person is shooting something at the trunks of a tree. Thus signifies aiming precisily to hit the trunk.
Tar-mi-yana and Aru-Tamayana means A group/We shot at another in a contest, again showing the definition of precisily aiming at the object, as it is used to define the act of aiming on such a high level, people do it during a contest of bow shooting.
Thus the whole definition of Ra-Mim-Ya refers to throw or cast something precisily unto an object.
Tar-Mi-Him thus directly means: A group of persons (you in plural) were shooting at something with the intention to precisily hitting it.
You must always look at ALL the words that come from the Root-word so you can understand the defintion of the word and in which situations it is used. The root meaning is To throw or cast, but when we explore the words coming from it, for 90% they refer to throwing something with precise precision. Thus the definition is correctly explained by the words.
I hope this answers your question.