Salaam alaykum,
This question is mostly for brother Arnold but please feel free to reply if anyone else would like to share their thoughts.
Brother Arnold, you wrote about code 19 and Rashad Khalifa on the old forum once. Can you please list your thoughts once more about the significance of code 19 (relevance to Quran) and the role of Rashad Khalifa in the 'Quran Only' muslim world. I believe most of Rashad's ideology is inline with the 'Quran Only' Islam but would appreciate your clarification in regards to where you believe he deviated and possibly crossed the line between truth and falsehood etc. I dont know much about him and have read that he claimed himself to be a prophet in some capacity (like Mirza Ghulam did saying he was a non-law bearing prophet etc).
Thank you,
Naushad.
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
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Naushad
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:01 pm
- Contact:
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Arnold Yasin Mol
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Salaam Naushad,
Well to give a few short points, as I'm planning to write an article about this later on the new forum inshAllah.
I do believe there is a 19 pattern in the Quran. i have studied it for a long time, and I do see clear patterns that involve the number 19, be it in number of words, sentences, surahs or subjects.
Sadly, Rashad Khalifa, through a dream, and his own interpretation of some verses, gave him the idea that he was sent by God to save Islam. Through this, his idea of being a messenger was formed. He believed he was sent to restore the true Quranic message.
But this happened after his rejection of Hadith. When he started to discover patterns in the Quran, he studied every word so closely, he started to understand that a book that claims to be a Revelation, must have some inner proofs inside it, so we can verify it is tampered with or not. Because of this concept, he quickly realized that hadith could never match this test of authenticity.
And soon after that he rejected Hadith. As his discovery was known througout the Islamic world, and praised by many, this sudden attack on the clergy and sunnah/hadith came as a shock. Quickly, many books were written by scholars how stupid the 19 code was, and it was all a hoax.
These refutals were written by the same scholars who praised the code only months before.
Rashad was still very influenced by the Sunni approach to the Quran. Not following Hadith is not the same as not being influenced by them. His approach to the Quran was very ritualistic and very non-political. He still aproached the Quran as a religious book, focussing on acknowledging God in the best way.
He was also very focussed on the concept of the end of the world, which influenced his interpretations of the 19 patterns. Al-Sa'ah means many things, and refers to a revolutionaire change in society, but he still approached it from the sunni point of view as the end of the world.
Later on he developed the idea of messengership. Not knowing perhaps that there were already many people before him the also rejected Hadith.
I do believe Rashad was sincere and an honest man. Yes, Mirza Ahmad claimed also to be a messenger, but to compare the 2 individuals is a very big mistake. Mirza looks far more egocentric, chaotic and hateful in his writings. Rashad is very open, warm, honest and hopeful about reform in Islam in his writings.
Maybe Rashad was decieved by some of his own interpretations on verses, his dreams and the admiration of his followers. Also the pressure and sense of immense responsibility maybe developed the concept of messengership, not just being a reformer, but send by God to reform. One of the main human tendencies, is to feel special, feel important. All of these factors, psychological and social, thus developed the idea of messengership.
With Mirza, I believe it was done out of being metally ill, with Rashad I believe it sustained his mental health. The two differences are very clear.
Sadly, his claim on messengership has clouded honest research on the 19 pattern and was also used to get rid of this Hadith rejecter. He was assinated in 1990 after being declared Kafir on the same clergy meeting that declared Salam Rushdie as Kafir.
One of the most important things we must do is seperate the discoverer from the discovery.
I will elaborate this more in the future, and there is a new book coming up by Edip Yuksel on the 19 code, so we can study it more. Edip do feel Rashad was God sent, and we differ about the last 2 verses of Surah 9, but for the most I agree on his study. I have proof read his book, and it is amazing. Your concept of Divine proof for Revelation will be completely lifted to another level. No writing on Earth can compete with the Quran through the 19 structure.
A summary on the whole controversion of the subject is:
1. Rashad claim on messengership
2. his interpretations of the 19 pattern purpose and message
3. his idea of the Quran's purpose
4. the pattern showing the demands on proof for Diviness
We must seperate 1, 2 and 3 from 4. Although he was right on his rejection on Hadith, he still couldn't let go of the concept of rituals, and thus developed the concept of a Divine sunnah of rituals that were given to Abraham and were corrected by the Quran in Muhammed's time.
This is historically and theological not acceptable, and his theories on this were very weak and refutable through the Quran.But it was all part of his evolution of thinking.
It is hard to just let go of the concept of worship and acknowledging God through rituals. Most of us have experienced this struggle or are still experiencing this.
In the end we have a man with controversial claims and a pattern in the Quran. We must stop seeign black and white, and see what is correct and what is not. We can reject Rashad's claim on messengership, his concept of the 19 code's message, his idea of the end of the world and his idea on the Quranic message.
He claimed for example that a monotheistic Christian or Hindu would also go to heaven, just by believing in God alone. But this concept contradicts the Quranic purpose. The concept of God alone is only because it is reality
and to handle reality, we must have the correct view on reality. This is why God alone is so important, not because God cares, He is above care or want. God says if there were more gods, there would be chaos in the universe, He points out to the structure of reality, it is the same as saying birds have wings, it is an correct observation of reality.
Rashad completely missed the political side of the Quran, as far as his writings tell me. To believe in God alone is step 1, but without the right guidance, which can only be found in the Quran, you can develope further, which is the main concept of Jannah, Paradise.
This is only one example in the mistakes he made in his interpretations. We must not forget, that he was still developing himself. Who knows how far he may have got with developing correct concepts of Quranic subjects if he had lived? We can not blame him for being stuck in one step of his progress of slowly letting go of his upbringing.
But is easier to focus on someone's mistakes then to focus on someone's achievements. Rashad was completely right on his rejection of the clergy and Hadith. In this he was completely supported by the Quran.
His observation of the 19-pattern was also correct partialy. Later on, several mathematicians researched the 19- pattern and reject parts of Rashad's claims as being unstatistic. Also his idea that 2 verses of surah 9 were rejected by the 19-pattern was later on refuted by several researchers that show that the Warsh-count does include them, and that Rashad's mistake was only focussing on the Hafs-count of verses.
The 19-pattern is amzing in its structure and also in its occurence. It shows up in number of words or subjects, but even in recitation. For example, you close your mouth exactly 19 times when reciting Surah 1 AL-Fatiha. Go check it out, with every B and M you really close your lips on another together for 19 times. It will take several counts for you to notice it.
Lets count them:
Bismi Allāhi Ar-Raĥmāni Ar-Raĥīmi = 4
Al-Ĥamdu Lillāhi Rabbi Al-`Ālamīna = 3
Ar-Raĥmāni Ar-Raĥīmi =2
Māliki Yawmi Ad-Dīni = 2
'Īyāka Na`budu Wa 'Īyāka Nasta`īnu = 1
Ahdinā Aş-Şirāţa Al-Mustaqīma = 2
Şirāţa Al-Ladhīna 'An`amta `Alayhim = 2
Ghayri Al-Maghđūbi `Alayhim Wa Lā Ađ-Đāllīna = 3
4+3+2+2+1+2+2+3= 19
The missing Bismilleh of Surah 9 can be found in the letter of Queen Sheba in Surah 27, exactly 19 surahs later.
In surah 2 verse 55, it is told that the Jews demanded to see God, this is the 19th time the word God is mentioned in the Quran starting from Al-Fatiha.
This is only the top of the iceberg.
Hopefully more scientific research will be done in the future on this concept. And I will try to share as much knowledge on this subject as I can.
For now we must learn that we cannot equate Rashad Khalifa to Mirza Ahmad. They both falsely claimed messengership, but Rashad did it with the right intention I believe, Mirza was just plain crazy.
Rashad's ideas on rejection of Hadith is indeed the same as ours, but his knowledge of its history and also why Hadith emerged are incorrect or on an amateuristic level.
His translation of the Quran was refreshing for its time, but it contains many mistakes and also is very ritualistic in its approach. The political and legal and economical systems of the Quran were not understood by him.
Rashad's ideas on the purpose on 19, and also his findings cannot be taken as the only conclusions or as binding ones. We must research for ourselves on this subject on a scientific level.
The concept of a 19-pattern cannot be ignored in my point of view, and we do need to research it honestly and without bias. Let's seperate the discovery from the discoverer without discrediting the discoverer. Although he may made false claims and mistakes, he did so out of honesty and not of pursuing his ego.
Well to give a few short points, as I'm planning to write an article about this later on the new forum inshAllah.
I do believe there is a 19 pattern in the Quran. i have studied it for a long time, and I do see clear patterns that involve the number 19, be it in number of words, sentences, surahs or subjects.
Sadly, Rashad Khalifa, through a dream, and his own interpretation of some verses, gave him the idea that he was sent by God to save Islam. Through this, his idea of being a messenger was formed. He believed he was sent to restore the true Quranic message.
But this happened after his rejection of Hadith. When he started to discover patterns in the Quran, he studied every word so closely, he started to understand that a book that claims to be a Revelation, must have some inner proofs inside it, so we can verify it is tampered with or not. Because of this concept, he quickly realized that hadith could never match this test of authenticity.
And soon after that he rejected Hadith. As his discovery was known througout the Islamic world, and praised by many, this sudden attack on the clergy and sunnah/hadith came as a shock. Quickly, many books were written by scholars how stupid the 19 code was, and it was all a hoax.
These refutals were written by the same scholars who praised the code only months before.
Rashad was still very influenced by the Sunni approach to the Quran. Not following Hadith is not the same as not being influenced by them. His approach to the Quran was very ritualistic and very non-political. He still aproached the Quran as a religious book, focussing on acknowledging God in the best way.
He was also very focussed on the concept of the end of the world, which influenced his interpretations of the 19 patterns. Al-Sa'ah means many things, and refers to a revolutionaire change in society, but he still approached it from the sunni point of view as the end of the world.
Later on he developed the idea of messengership. Not knowing perhaps that there were already many people before him the also rejected Hadith.
I do believe Rashad was sincere and an honest man. Yes, Mirza Ahmad claimed also to be a messenger, but to compare the 2 individuals is a very big mistake. Mirza looks far more egocentric, chaotic and hateful in his writings. Rashad is very open, warm, honest and hopeful about reform in Islam in his writings.
Maybe Rashad was decieved by some of his own interpretations on verses, his dreams and the admiration of his followers. Also the pressure and sense of immense responsibility maybe developed the concept of messengership, not just being a reformer, but send by God to reform. One of the main human tendencies, is to feel special, feel important. All of these factors, psychological and social, thus developed the idea of messengership.
With Mirza, I believe it was done out of being metally ill, with Rashad I believe it sustained his mental health. The two differences are very clear.
Sadly, his claim on messengership has clouded honest research on the 19 pattern and was also used to get rid of this Hadith rejecter. He was assinated in 1990 after being declared Kafir on the same clergy meeting that declared Salam Rushdie as Kafir.
One of the most important things we must do is seperate the discoverer from the discovery.
I will elaborate this more in the future, and there is a new book coming up by Edip Yuksel on the 19 code, so we can study it more. Edip do feel Rashad was God sent, and we differ about the last 2 verses of Surah 9, but for the most I agree on his study. I have proof read his book, and it is amazing. Your concept of Divine proof for Revelation will be completely lifted to another level. No writing on Earth can compete with the Quran through the 19 structure.
A summary on the whole controversion of the subject is:
1. Rashad claim on messengership
2. his interpretations of the 19 pattern purpose and message
3. his idea of the Quran's purpose
4. the pattern showing the demands on proof for Diviness
We must seperate 1, 2 and 3 from 4. Although he was right on his rejection on Hadith, he still couldn't let go of the concept of rituals, and thus developed the concept of a Divine sunnah of rituals that were given to Abraham and were corrected by the Quran in Muhammed's time.
This is historically and theological not acceptable, and his theories on this were very weak and refutable through the Quran.But it was all part of his evolution of thinking.
It is hard to just let go of the concept of worship and acknowledging God through rituals. Most of us have experienced this struggle or are still experiencing this.
In the end we have a man with controversial claims and a pattern in the Quran. We must stop seeign black and white, and see what is correct and what is not. We can reject Rashad's claim on messengership, his concept of the 19 code's message, his idea of the end of the world and his idea on the Quranic message.
He claimed for example that a monotheistic Christian or Hindu would also go to heaven, just by believing in God alone. But this concept contradicts the Quranic purpose. The concept of God alone is only because it is reality
and to handle reality, we must have the correct view on reality. This is why God alone is so important, not because God cares, He is above care or want. God says if there were more gods, there would be chaos in the universe, He points out to the structure of reality, it is the same as saying birds have wings, it is an correct observation of reality.
Rashad completely missed the political side of the Quran, as far as his writings tell me. To believe in God alone is step 1, but without the right guidance, which can only be found in the Quran, you can develope further, which is the main concept of Jannah, Paradise.
This is only one example in the mistakes he made in his interpretations. We must not forget, that he was still developing himself. Who knows how far he may have got with developing correct concepts of Quranic subjects if he had lived? We can not blame him for being stuck in one step of his progress of slowly letting go of his upbringing.
But is easier to focus on someone's mistakes then to focus on someone's achievements. Rashad was completely right on his rejection of the clergy and Hadith. In this he was completely supported by the Quran.
His observation of the 19-pattern was also correct partialy. Later on, several mathematicians researched the 19- pattern and reject parts of Rashad's claims as being unstatistic. Also his idea that 2 verses of surah 9 were rejected by the 19-pattern was later on refuted by several researchers that show that the Warsh-count does include them, and that Rashad's mistake was only focussing on the Hafs-count of verses.
The 19-pattern is amzing in its structure and also in its occurence. It shows up in number of words or subjects, but even in recitation. For example, you close your mouth exactly 19 times when reciting Surah 1 AL-Fatiha. Go check it out, with every B and M you really close your lips on another together for 19 times. It will take several counts for you to notice it.
Lets count them:
Bismi Allāhi Ar-Raĥmāni Ar-Raĥīmi = 4
Al-Ĥamdu Lillāhi Rabbi Al-`Ālamīna = 3
Ar-Raĥmāni Ar-Raĥīmi =2
Māliki Yawmi Ad-Dīni = 2
'Īyāka Na`budu Wa 'Īyāka Nasta`īnu = 1
Ahdinā Aş-Şirāţa Al-Mustaqīma = 2
Şirāţa Al-Ladhīna 'An`amta `Alayhim = 2
Ghayri Al-Maghđūbi `Alayhim Wa Lā Ađ-Đāllīna = 3
4+3+2+2+1+2+2+3= 19
The missing Bismilleh of Surah 9 can be found in the letter of Queen Sheba in Surah 27, exactly 19 surahs later.
In surah 2 verse 55, it is told that the Jews demanded to see God, this is the 19th time the word God is mentioned in the Quran starting from Al-Fatiha.
This is only the top of the iceberg.
Hopefully more scientific research will be done in the future on this concept. And I will try to share as much knowledge on this subject as I can.
For now we must learn that we cannot equate Rashad Khalifa to Mirza Ahmad. They both falsely claimed messengership, but Rashad did it with the right intention I believe, Mirza was just plain crazy.
Rashad's ideas on rejection of Hadith is indeed the same as ours, but his knowledge of its history and also why Hadith emerged are incorrect or on an amateuristic level.
His translation of the Quran was refreshing for its time, but it contains many mistakes and also is very ritualistic in its approach. The political and legal and economical systems of the Quran were not understood by him.
Rashad's ideas on the purpose on 19, and also his findings cannot be taken as the only conclusions or as binding ones. We must research for ourselves on this subject on a scientific level.
The concept of a 19-pattern cannot be ignored in my point of view, and we do need to research it honestly and without bias. Let's seperate the discovery from the discoverer without discrediting the discoverer. Although he may made false claims and mistakes, he did so out of honesty and not of pursuing his ego.
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Saleena
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:14 pm
- Contact:
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Later on, several mathematicians researched the 19- pattern and reject parts of Rashad's claims as being unstatistic. Also his idea that 2 verses of surah 9 were rejected by the 19-pattern was later on refuted by several researchers that show that the Warsh-count does include them, and that Rashad's mistake was only focussing on the Hafs-count of verses.
With all due respect, isn't the issue of 'qiraat' mentioned here part of the conspiracy against the Quran? If I recall correctly, the reading known as 'hafs' is actually the original Quresh dialect (with diametrical marks added, wheras the original Quranic text did not contain these marks). Any other dialectual readings serve only to put doubt in people's minds as to the authenticity of the Quranic text. Of course the text of the Quran is static, and Dr. Khalifa was right to treat it as such. No one should try to use other qiraat to either corroborate or refute Dr. Khalifa's work. If I am wrong, please do correct me.
Deliver! - A news show with a difference, coming soon -
http://www.deliverancefilms.co.uk
http://www.deliverancefilms.co.uk
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Arnold Yasin Mol
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Salaam Saleena,
The Hafs-Quran has by no means any credit to be the most authentic one. It is only the most populair one.
These two articles will explain the issue very correctly:
Article:Which Quran?
Article: 19: Fact or Fiction?
The Hafs-Quran has by no means any credit to be the most authentic one. It is only the most populair one.
These two articles will explain the issue very correctly:
Article:Which Quran?
Article: 19: Fact or Fiction?
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Ahmed Mateen
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:33 pm
- Contact:
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
I dont think Rashad Khalifa was mentally sound. People must have some mental problems when they claim to be Messenger and sent by God. Rashad Khalifa wasn't better than Mirza Qadiani. He uses hadith when convenient, for example to prove his theory he removed two verses of surah Tauba 9:128-129 and he uses hadith to prove his claim.
About his mental health just see the following:
The article below states:
". a 16-year-old-girl testified that he [RK]raped her while supposedly recruiting her for a United Nations research project."
"According to the girl, Khalifa recruited her to do research on the aura, a luminous radiation that supposedly surrounds the body, and met her Sept. 3 at an East Side office for that purpose."
"The girl said Khalifa asked her to remove her clothing so that it wouldn't interfere with her aura and after massaging several parts of her body, he proceeded to have sexual relations with her."
"...Khalifa admitted to the police that he had manipulated the girl's breasts during his research. . . ."
"Justice of The Peace James West held a three-day hearing, and found sufficient evidence to order Khalifa to "stand trial on charges of sexual assault, sexual abuse, and sexual contact with a minor."
http://www.geocities.com/ocp274/rk.htm
At the time of this incident Rashad was 43, was married, and had two children.
About his mental health just see the following:
The article below states:
". a 16-year-old-girl testified that he [RK]raped her while supposedly recruiting her for a United Nations research project."
"According to the girl, Khalifa recruited her to do research on the aura, a luminous radiation that supposedly surrounds the body, and met her Sept. 3 at an East Side office for that purpose."
"The girl said Khalifa asked her to remove her clothing so that it wouldn't interfere with her aura and after massaging several parts of her body, he proceeded to have sexual relations with her."
"...Khalifa admitted to the police that he had manipulated the girl's breasts during his research. . . ."
"Justice of The Peace James West held a three-day hearing, and found sufficient evidence to order Khalifa to "stand trial on charges of sexual assault, sexual abuse, and sexual contact with a minor."
http://www.geocities.com/ocp274/rk.htm
At the time of this incident Rashad was 43, was married, and had two children.
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Arnold Yasin Mol
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Peace,
Please compare the 2 writings of Mirza and Rashad, there is a big big difference between the 2. I do not defend his claim, false is false. But I believe we make a big mistake by comparing the 2 only becaused they misused Hadith when it was convenient.
Rashad never called himself Mary, Jesus, a worm and so on, which can be found In Mirza's writings.
Whatever it is, we still have the 19-pattern to research.
As for the newsclip, we always must be very careful using these as evidence, even in modern times, they are still Hadith, hearsay.
There are always 2 sides on a story. They probably blew up the story as Rashad was already a famous controversial person. It also was based on hear-say as this confession was never offically reported.
She accussed him of rape, while no evidence at all was found of rape.
Edip Yuksel, close friend of Rashad Khalifa, has told the story also:
Distracting Through Defamation
The following is my response to a Sunni who tried to distract from issues by trying to defame Rashad Khalifa.
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You have found an old "allegation" from a newspaper to slander and defame Rashad Khalifah, whom you hate to your bones. Through your posts on this forum and your chat conversations, it is obvious to me that you hate Rashad because he invited you to follow the Quran alone by rejecting to worship your religious leaders and prophets through associating them to God in law-making and intercession. You could not show sufficient bravery and wisdom to question the religion you have inherited from your parents.
Your adhominem attack is clear and your intention is not clean. You know it well that the allegation you are trying to propagate did not survive the scrutiny of the court. Otherwise, a person committing rape should have been convicted by the court. The court found no evidence of allegation. You appear to be very good in digging dirt about people. But, why you failed to find any conviction about Rashad Khalifa on this matter?
You know that the allegation was false, but you act as if you are an honest person accidentally subjected to these allegations, got confused and needing clarification. In a previous private conversation, I informed you about the real story but you laughed and told me that you would go a head and post defamatory news about Rashad.
Well, I will clarify the issue for those who have good intention, but are expecting a clarification. First, to establish foundation, I will tell a little about my personal relationship with him:
After rejecting the polytheistic religion of my parents, I became a target in my home country. I lost my best-selling author title, popularity, and I became radioactive. When I received death threats and experienced physical attack to my life from fanatic people who shared the same faith as you do, I decided to immigrate. Before that, Rashad had sent me an invitation letter together with his promise of helping me regarding boarding and other necessities. So, I had gotten visa with no problem. When I arrived to the airport at New York, the officer there extended my visa without even I asked him.
Initially, I lived in a room adjacent to Masjid Tucson, and then Rashad rented an apartment for my wife and me. I spent one year in Masjid Tucson working with Rashad, until his assassination by a Sunni terrorist group, and during that year, I spent almost every day of the week with him in the Masjid, from morning prayer until night prayer. I also had a round trip together with him driving a car from Tucson to Vancouver, and back. I was working on the Turkish translation, reviewing his revision of his translation, discussing our differences, writing articles for the monthly bulletin, once a while giving Friday cermons, participating in discussions with Sunni and Shiite visitors, interviewed by TV stations or journalists… In 1989, I participated in an international conference held in Chicago by Sunni scholars, on the Finality of Prophethood. They had sent an invitation to Rashad to be their audience! Rashad asked me represent him there. He prepared a special issue of the Muslim Perspective to be distributed there. I wrote the "19 Questions For Muslim Scholars" to hand out to the participating scholars.
The hosts of the conference mistreated me without justification. I submitted the 19 Questions to the scholars on the panel. The young organizers immediately gathered around me, physically pushing me out from the conference room. This is their routine reaction to criticism to their dogmas. So, I spent my time in the lobby talking to their youth, who were curious about what I had to say. This made them furious; but could not ask the police to stop me hanging around in my hotel's lobby. Later, I learned that they had further plans to hurt me in my hotel room. Thank God, a black sunni muslim, whom I did not know personally, came to me in hurry and took me out from the hotel before they performed their plan.
During this one-year period, I had observed great integrity, wisdom, dedication, bravery and camaraderie from Rashad. He was a great friend, teacher and at the same times a humble student of the Quran. I loved him very much, as I loved my father, even more; but I never accepted his opinion on the Quran or on any other issues like some people did; I always checked for myself and occasionally disagreed with him. My discussions and arguments with him, unbeknownst to me, created some enemies from his secret worshippers who were then incubating in their cocoons. In fact, several days before his assassination, I had an intense argument with him in front of the community, and afterwards we did not talk to each other for several days, until he came to me apologizing for his words. Those who know the nature of our relationship know well that I never treated him as a cult leader, but as a friend, a mentor, and a partner in jihad. In fact, in the front page of a copy of his translation, which he gave me as a gift; on top of his signature, he called me his brother in jihad.
I can write many pages regarding his strength, skills, good character, integrity, faith, trust in God, intelligence, charitable acts, etc. However, during my one year working with him I also witnessed some human weaknesses and traits. For instance, I saw tears coming from his eyes and his belly shaking from laughter; I witnessed him making continuous corrections in his understanding of the Quran; I found him usually insisting that his understanding of a particular verse was more accurate than of mine, and occasionally he accepted mine. Once he disappointed me by uttering the four-lettered word S..T, when a police officer stopped me, while we were driving to California (I had temporary driving permit, then; and I am a puritan). Furthermore, he continuously irritated my sense of strict accuracy whenever he was praising every food he was cooking for us in Masjid's kitchen by saying "This is the most delicious food in the world!" (Ironically, years later, I started saying the same thing and now my son is getting irritated of hearing so many MOSTs). One more thing: He liked mangoes very much and when he would eat them, he would make a mess. Surely, these are all trivial errors or perceived errors. But, I think, one error or weakness was outstanding: he was very kind to people around him and he could not tell those who were excited with a so-called discovery of mathematical miracle, "What you have discovered has no mathematical significance," or "Please give up using calculator to discover mathematical miracles; you have no clue about math and probability." I remember criticizing him frequently for his liberal attitude on this issue for not discouraging those innumerate miracle-hunters.
During my one-year close work with him, I never noticed him treating women inappropriately or any flirtatious behavior with anyone. We were very close. One day he told me about his past work in American Muslim student association. He was one of the founders of Islamic Center or Mosque of Tucson. However, in 1970's, he started questioning hadith and consequently discussing this issue with his close friends in that mosque. The straw that broke the camel's back was his rejection of Stoning-to-death penalty for adulterers. He found it anti Quranic and barbaric. His friends immediately ask him to cut his relationship from the Center.
Soon, he purchased an apartment complex on lot 114 on the corner of Euclid and 6th Avenue, by the University of Arizona, about a mile from the Islamic Center. However, soon he found himself been accused by a young Mexican girl. He had no doubt, that she was paid and hired by his former Sunni friends to defame him. I had plenty reason to believe him, since I knew him and also I knew his enemies. Sunnies had fabricated many lies about me too, from being a member of Moon Cult to being paid by CIA or Israel, etc.
Now, you are chewing over the same false accusation, which was fabricated by the believers of stoning-to-death practice, a practice that relies on the authority of hadith books that narrate the most ridiculous stories, such as a group of monkeys stoning an adulterer monkey, or a hungry holy goat eating the stoning verse after Muhammad's death and abrogating from the Quran…. There is no doubt, your animosity towards Rashad is because of his rejection of making those garbage teachings a part of his religion. Throughout history, Mushriks have slandered, attacked, tortured, and even killed those who dedicated themselves to God ALONE by rejecting Satan and his polytheistic doctrines. You and your comrades are no different from those Arab mushriks who tried everything, including false accusations to defame and deter Muhammad from promoting monotheism. What you brought was rejected by the court but you and your gang help bring some verses of the Quran to life again. No wonder the verses do not specify names:
24:11 A gang among you produced a big lie. Do not think that it was bad for you; instead, it was good for you. Meanwhile, each one of them has earned his share of the guilt. As for the one who initiated the whole incident, he has incurred a terrible retribution.
24:12 When you heard it, the believing men and the believing women should have had better thoughts about themselves, and should have said, "This is obviously a big lie."
24:13 Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars.
24:14 If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy in this world and in the Hereafter, you would have suffered a great retribution because of this incident.
24:15 You fabricated it with your own tongues, and the rest of you repeated it with your mouths without proof. You thought it was simple, when it was, according to GOD, gross.
24:16 When you heard it, you should have said, "We will not repeat this. Glory be to You. This is a gross falsehood."
24:17 GOD admonishes you that you shall never do it again, if you are believers.
+++
Peace Edip,
Thank you for the explanation. I hope you won't be offended if I (as someone who is genuinely ambivalent towards Dr. Khalifa) ask a few more questions.
1. Why did Dr. Khalifa plead "no contest" instead of "not guilty"?
2. The article posted by Mr. Sathani says that "Khalifa admitted to police that he had manipulated the girl's breast..." Why would the police lie about this, and did the court find this to be untrue as well?
Peace,
Peter
+++
Good questions Peter; but there are gooder questions:
1. I do not know how authentic the newspaper clip is. I do not trust Sunnies, especially about a person they hate so much. Most sunnies justify the killing of Rashad, and my experience has shown that they are very ready to accept any lie that would harm their antagonists. With today's technology one can create fake audiovisual clips, let alone a newspaper clip. So, I need to verify the newspaper clip myself.
2. There might be many reasons for a non guilty person plead "no contest" This might involve the nature of the case person's care about his privacy, the privacy and decision of their spouse, etc. Sexual abuse by a teenager, even if it is utterly fabricated, could be more damaging if it is allowed to linger in the court. Even if the party is acquitted in the end; his personal life and privacy will exposed to public. Rashad might have followed the advise of his attorney or wife, who is a very private person.
3. Rape or sexual abuse of a child is a serious crime under Arizona Law, and plea of no contest should not bar the court from sentencing Rashad to some prison term. As far as I know, Rashad was not sentenced even to a one-day prison after the criminal charges were adjacuated. So, if child molestation charges were found to be a fact, then where is the conviction?
4. This newspaper clip, even if it is authentic, is a hearsay. We may comment about many statements there, but they will be mere speculations. We cannot get the real story from that newspaper story.
5. My religios position has nothing to do with Rashad's person; it is based on the Quran alone. The Sunni who is posting this old and unjustified allegations about a dead man, knows this well. However, when the followers of Hadith and Sunnah, lose the argument on the subsatnce, this is one of their ways of diverting the issue. God has provided them with a story to find an excuse to fool themselves.
Peace,
Edip
+++
Please compare the 2 writings of Mirza and Rashad, there is a big big difference between the 2. I do not defend his claim, false is false. But I believe we make a big mistake by comparing the 2 only becaused they misused Hadith when it was convenient.
Rashad never called himself Mary, Jesus, a worm and so on, which can be found In Mirza's writings.
Whatever it is, we still have the 19-pattern to research.
As for the newsclip, we always must be very careful using these as evidence, even in modern times, they are still Hadith, hearsay.
There are always 2 sides on a story. They probably blew up the story as Rashad was already a famous controversial person. It also was based on hear-say as this confession was never offically reported.
She accussed him of rape, while no evidence at all was found of rape.
Edip Yuksel, close friend of Rashad Khalifa, has told the story also:
Distracting Through Defamation
The following is my response to a Sunni who tried to distract from issues by trying to defame Rashad Khalifa.
-----
You have found an old "allegation" from a newspaper to slander and defame Rashad Khalifah, whom you hate to your bones. Through your posts on this forum and your chat conversations, it is obvious to me that you hate Rashad because he invited you to follow the Quran alone by rejecting to worship your religious leaders and prophets through associating them to God in law-making and intercession. You could not show sufficient bravery and wisdom to question the religion you have inherited from your parents.
Your adhominem attack is clear and your intention is not clean. You know it well that the allegation you are trying to propagate did not survive the scrutiny of the court. Otherwise, a person committing rape should have been convicted by the court. The court found no evidence of allegation. You appear to be very good in digging dirt about people. But, why you failed to find any conviction about Rashad Khalifa on this matter?
You know that the allegation was false, but you act as if you are an honest person accidentally subjected to these allegations, got confused and needing clarification. In a previous private conversation, I informed you about the real story but you laughed and told me that you would go a head and post defamatory news about Rashad.
Well, I will clarify the issue for those who have good intention, but are expecting a clarification. First, to establish foundation, I will tell a little about my personal relationship with him:
After rejecting the polytheistic religion of my parents, I became a target in my home country. I lost my best-selling author title, popularity, and I became radioactive. When I received death threats and experienced physical attack to my life from fanatic people who shared the same faith as you do, I decided to immigrate. Before that, Rashad had sent me an invitation letter together with his promise of helping me regarding boarding and other necessities. So, I had gotten visa with no problem. When I arrived to the airport at New York, the officer there extended my visa without even I asked him.
Initially, I lived in a room adjacent to Masjid Tucson, and then Rashad rented an apartment for my wife and me. I spent one year in Masjid Tucson working with Rashad, until his assassination by a Sunni terrorist group, and during that year, I spent almost every day of the week with him in the Masjid, from morning prayer until night prayer. I also had a round trip together with him driving a car from Tucson to Vancouver, and back. I was working on the Turkish translation, reviewing his revision of his translation, discussing our differences, writing articles for the monthly bulletin, once a while giving Friday cermons, participating in discussions with Sunni and Shiite visitors, interviewed by TV stations or journalists… In 1989, I participated in an international conference held in Chicago by Sunni scholars, on the Finality of Prophethood. They had sent an invitation to Rashad to be their audience! Rashad asked me represent him there. He prepared a special issue of the Muslim Perspective to be distributed there. I wrote the "19 Questions For Muslim Scholars" to hand out to the participating scholars.
The hosts of the conference mistreated me without justification. I submitted the 19 Questions to the scholars on the panel. The young organizers immediately gathered around me, physically pushing me out from the conference room. This is their routine reaction to criticism to their dogmas. So, I spent my time in the lobby talking to their youth, who were curious about what I had to say. This made them furious; but could not ask the police to stop me hanging around in my hotel's lobby. Later, I learned that they had further plans to hurt me in my hotel room. Thank God, a black sunni muslim, whom I did not know personally, came to me in hurry and took me out from the hotel before they performed their plan.
During this one-year period, I had observed great integrity, wisdom, dedication, bravery and camaraderie from Rashad. He was a great friend, teacher and at the same times a humble student of the Quran. I loved him very much, as I loved my father, even more; but I never accepted his opinion on the Quran or on any other issues like some people did; I always checked for myself and occasionally disagreed with him. My discussions and arguments with him, unbeknownst to me, created some enemies from his secret worshippers who were then incubating in their cocoons. In fact, several days before his assassination, I had an intense argument with him in front of the community, and afterwards we did not talk to each other for several days, until he came to me apologizing for his words. Those who know the nature of our relationship know well that I never treated him as a cult leader, but as a friend, a mentor, and a partner in jihad. In fact, in the front page of a copy of his translation, which he gave me as a gift; on top of his signature, he called me his brother in jihad.
I can write many pages regarding his strength, skills, good character, integrity, faith, trust in God, intelligence, charitable acts, etc. However, during my one year working with him I also witnessed some human weaknesses and traits. For instance, I saw tears coming from his eyes and his belly shaking from laughter; I witnessed him making continuous corrections in his understanding of the Quran; I found him usually insisting that his understanding of a particular verse was more accurate than of mine, and occasionally he accepted mine. Once he disappointed me by uttering the four-lettered word S..T, when a police officer stopped me, while we were driving to California (I had temporary driving permit, then; and I am a puritan). Furthermore, he continuously irritated my sense of strict accuracy whenever he was praising every food he was cooking for us in Masjid's kitchen by saying "This is the most delicious food in the world!" (Ironically, years later, I started saying the same thing and now my son is getting irritated of hearing so many MOSTs). One more thing: He liked mangoes very much and when he would eat them, he would make a mess. Surely, these are all trivial errors or perceived errors. But, I think, one error or weakness was outstanding: he was very kind to people around him and he could not tell those who were excited with a so-called discovery of mathematical miracle, "What you have discovered has no mathematical significance," or "Please give up using calculator to discover mathematical miracles; you have no clue about math and probability." I remember criticizing him frequently for his liberal attitude on this issue for not discouraging those innumerate miracle-hunters.
During my one-year close work with him, I never noticed him treating women inappropriately or any flirtatious behavior with anyone. We were very close. One day he told me about his past work in American Muslim student association. He was one of the founders of Islamic Center or Mosque of Tucson. However, in 1970's, he started questioning hadith and consequently discussing this issue with his close friends in that mosque. The straw that broke the camel's back was his rejection of Stoning-to-death penalty for adulterers. He found it anti Quranic and barbaric. His friends immediately ask him to cut his relationship from the Center.
Soon, he purchased an apartment complex on lot 114 on the corner of Euclid and 6th Avenue, by the University of Arizona, about a mile from the Islamic Center. However, soon he found himself been accused by a young Mexican girl. He had no doubt, that she was paid and hired by his former Sunni friends to defame him. I had plenty reason to believe him, since I knew him and also I knew his enemies. Sunnies had fabricated many lies about me too, from being a member of Moon Cult to being paid by CIA or Israel, etc.
Now, you are chewing over the same false accusation, which was fabricated by the believers of stoning-to-death practice, a practice that relies on the authority of hadith books that narrate the most ridiculous stories, such as a group of monkeys stoning an adulterer monkey, or a hungry holy goat eating the stoning verse after Muhammad's death and abrogating from the Quran…. There is no doubt, your animosity towards Rashad is because of his rejection of making those garbage teachings a part of his religion. Throughout history, Mushriks have slandered, attacked, tortured, and even killed those who dedicated themselves to God ALONE by rejecting Satan and his polytheistic doctrines. You and your comrades are no different from those Arab mushriks who tried everything, including false accusations to defame and deter Muhammad from promoting monotheism. What you brought was rejected by the court but you and your gang help bring some verses of the Quran to life again. No wonder the verses do not specify names:
24:11 A gang among you produced a big lie. Do not think that it was bad for you; instead, it was good for you. Meanwhile, each one of them has earned his share of the guilt. As for the one who initiated the whole incident, he has incurred a terrible retribution.
24:12 When you heard it, the believing men and the believing women should have had better thoughts about themselves, and should have said, "This is obviously a big lie."
24:13 Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars.
24:14 If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy in this world and in the Hereafter, you would have suffered a great retribution because of this incident.
24:15 You fabricated it with your own tongues, and the rest of you repeated it with your mouths without proof. You thought it was simple, when it was, according to GOD, gross.
24:16 When you heard it, you should have said, "We will not repeat this. Glory be to You. This is a gross falsehood."
24:17 GOD admonishes you that you shall never do it again, if you are believers.
+++
Peace Edip,
Thank you for the explanation. I hope you won't be offended if I (as someone who is genuinely ambivalent towards Dr. Khalifa) ask a few more questions.
1. Why did Dr. Khalifa plead "no contest" instead of "not guilty"?
2. The article posted by Mr. Sathani says that "Khalifa admitted to police that he had manipulated the girl's breast..." Why would the police lie about this, and did the court find this to be untrue as well?
Peace,
Peter
+++
Good questions Peter; but there are gooder questions:
1. I do not know how authentic the newspaper clip is. I do not trust Sunnies, especially about a person they hate so much. Most sunnies justify the killing of Rashad, and my experience has shown that they are very ready to accept any lie that would harm their antagonists. With today's technology one can create fake audiovisual clips, let alone a newspaper clip. So, I need to verify the newspaper clip myself.
2. There might be many reasons for a non guilty person plead "no contest" This might involve the nature of the case person's care about his privacy, the privacy and decision of their spouse, etc. Sexual abuse by a teenager, even if it is utterly fabricated, could be more damaging if it is allowed to linger in the court. Even if the party is acquitted in the end; his personal life and privacy will exposed to public. Rashad might have followed the advise of his attorney or wife, who is a very private person.
3. Rape or sexual abuse of a child is a serious crime under Arizona Law, and plea of no contest should not bar the court from sentencing Rashad to some prison term. As far as I know, Rashad was not sentenced even to a one-day prison after the criminal charges were adjacuated. So, if child molestation charges were found to be a fact, then where is the conviction?
4. This newspaper clip, even if it is authentic, is a hearsay. We may comment about many statements there, but they will be mere speculations. We cannot get the real story from that newspaper story.
5. My religios position has nothing to do with Rashad's person; it is based on the Quran alone. The Sunni who is posting this old and unjustified allegations about a dead man, knows this well. However, when the followers of Hadith and Sunnah, lose the argument on the subsatnce, this is one of their ways of diverting the issue. God has provided them with a story to find an excuse to fool themselves.
Peace,
Edip
+++
-
Ahmed Mateen
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:33 pm
- Contact:
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
<<<Rashad never called himself Mary, Jesus, a worm and so on, which can be found In Mirza's writings.>>>
I see...
Rashad claimed:
"Submission Perspective" of September 1989:
"THROUGH GABRIEL, I WAS COMMANDED TO MAKE THIS ANNOUNCEMENT: after I die millions of believers will know that I REPRESENT THE MESSIAH THE JEWS HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR, THE CHRIST CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN EXPECTING, THE MEHDI THE MUSLIMS HAVE BEEN PRAYING FOR. I am God's Messenger of the Covenant."
I see, he represents the Christ, Messiah, and Mahdi. And all of this from a rapist?
I am sorry bro but Edip is a follower of Rashad Khalifa thus has every right to defend his messenger. But he cannot just misguide other denyig the clear facts about his messenger.
I see...
Rashad claimed:
"Submission Perspective" of September 1989:
"THROUGH GABRIEL, I WAS COMMANDED TO MAKE THIS ANNOUNCEMENT: after I die millions of believers will know that I REPRESENT THE MESSIAH THE JEWS HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR, THE CHRIST CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN EXPECTING, THE MEHDI THE MUSLIMS HAVE BEEN PRAYING FOR. I am God's Messenger of the Covenant."
I see, he represents the Christ, Messiah, and Mahdi. And all of this from a rapist?
I am sorry bro but Edip is a follower of Rashad Khalifa thus has every right to defend his messenger. But he cannot just misguide other denyig the clear facts about his messenger.
-
Arnold Yasin Mol
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Peace,
He claimed the titles, not the persons, which Mirza did. We are talking on 2 completely different levels here. Whatever the case is, both made wrong claims.
And he was never condemned as a rapist by court, so we can't judge him as such.
He claimed the titles, not the persons, which Mirza did. We are talking on 2 completely different levels here. Whatever the case is, both made wrong claims.
And he was never condemned as a rapist by court, so we can't judge him as such.
-
UmeAimon
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:11 am
- Contact:
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Alhumdulillah and
Asalam oElikom all,
I am on a very tight schedule but again couldn’t resist writing here after reading the above mentioned articles. To tell you the truth, I never checked or verified all the claims done by submission group of Rashid Khalifa; But honestly I never thought it was worth it because for the truth seekers, who are continuously being diverted from believing in Quran alone by such researches and claims, I honestly suggest and have NO doubt that the whole purpose of this 19 code research thing is yet another way to deviate people from the true and real message of Allah. And the way it came out in the end only proves it!
So we discovered one of the many Allah’s way of showing His signs and also way of judging people’s belief.
Any other understanding will be dangerous and misleading; as if we need to understand Quran or discover the true Quran from this code? Where did we get this idea?
19:97
“And only to this end We have made this Quran easy to understand in your own tongue (O Prophet). That you might convey thereby glad news to the righteous and warn people given to futile contention.”
For the “Partially Coded Quran only” people who are constantly, contrary to their claim, trying to prove man made laws as of those from Allah in form of secret codes …
First, if there was a code, obviously the Prophet pbuh knew about it but it’s also obvious he never felt it was necessary to pass it on to the people for whatever reason? If they say he did tell people, they are implying that Quran did need EXPLAINATION from Prophet as it was not possible for poeple to do that at that time. This "Explaining of Quran by Prophet" theory has no authenticity from Quran itself and by the way it’s the same excuse ahadith supporters give!
Second, they ignore the verse 3:7. Or maybe they are wishing there was more to it, to serve their theory like NAUZOBILLAH!…
.”there are Ahkamats in here that you need to decode” or
“ there are ahkamats in here that only Prophet will decode for you and then later in 21st century you will too“
And finally why I think this research is not honest anymore!
Allah SWT says in Quran!
54:17
“And indeed We have made the Quran easy to Understand. Then, is there anyone who will learn?”
And so does in 54:22, in 54:32 and 54:40.
The truth is code theory itself implies only people who spend their lives counting “hroof” (alphabets) and doing mathematics could understand it or perhaps someone who has divine revelations- of course! I am not blaming or judging the discoverer Rashid Khalifa, as I cannot investigate him and anything past is history and of little use. It's what is done after that!
This so called research turning conveniently into revelation seemed more like discovery perhaps help of few software engineers and programmers, gotten into wrong hands!
But even it was discovered through literally counting every single character, what are they making out of it? Are they not trying to make Quran into a book of puzzles? For what purpose?
And where exactly did Allah SWT gave us these criteria of understanding this Book?
The verse 3:7 clearly guides us that the Muhkamats have been clearly stated and tells us not to move away from the foundations of the Quran. That should be enough for any true believer.
Allah SWT need not convey His message in codes and if so will not claim that He has made it simple to understand. That is contradictory and we as muslims do agree that Allah will not contradict Himself.
He took the task of preserving it on Himself and He challenged all to make just a verse like this.
He told us it is easy to understand and gave the criteria to understand it as… guidance for those who have honest and righteous hearts!
And yes He did tell us it’s a sign for those who believe like many others in the universe.
Yet there are people trying to define purpose for this code as to discover the real Quran!! I don’t know how have they understood the message in this Book or have they at all???
I think Allah knew people will fall for such things. He has purposely set these things in the Book to see who concentrates on the true message and take it as another sign from God, and who indulge and strays from the recommended path ...could be the reason for the verse mentioning NINETEEN with the HELL…who knows another sign!! :roll:
Bottom line is don’t loose the focus from the Real message, keep in mind the Real Purpose of this devine Book And KEEP IT SIMPLE PLEASE! the way it was meant to be. :)
Having said that I must go now it’s getting late and hope to see you all in two weeks inshahAllah!
May Allah keep us all on the right path.
jazakAllah!
Asalam oElikom all,
I am on a very tight schedule but again couldn’t resist writing here after reading the above mentioned articles. To tell you the truth, I never checked or verified all the claims done by submission group of Rashid Khalifa; But honestly I never thought it was worth it because for the truth seekers, who are continuously being diverted from believing in Quran alone by such researches and claims, I honestly suggest and have NO doubt that the whole purpose of this 19 code research thing is yet another way to deviate people from the true and real message of Allah. And the way it came out in the end only proves it!
So we discovered one of the many Allah’s way of showing His signs and also way of judging people’s belief.
Any other understanding will be dangerous and misleading; as if we need to understand Quran or discover the true Quran from this code? Where did we get this idea?
19:97
“And only to this end We have made this Quran easy to understand in your own tongue (O Prophet). That you might convey thereby glad news to the righteous and warn people given to futile contention.”
For the “Partially Coded Quran only” people who are constantly, contrary to their claim, trying to prove man made laws as of those from Allah in form of secret codes …
First, if there was a code, obviously the Prophet pbuh knew about it but it’s also obvious he never felt it was necessary to pass it on to the people for whatever reason? If they say he did tell people, they are implying that Quran did need EXPLAINATION from Prophet as it was not possible for poeple to do that at that time. This "Explaining of Quran by Prophet" theory has no authenticity from Quran itself and by the way it’s the same excuse ahadith supporters give!
Second, they ignore the verse 3:7. Or maybe they are wishing there was more to it, to serve their theory like NAUZOBILLAH!…
.”there are Ahkamats in here that you need to decode” or
“ there are ahkamats in here that only Prophet will decode for you and then later in 21st century you will too“
And finally why I think this research is not honest anymore!
Allah SWT says in Quran!
54:17
“And indeed We have made the Quran easy to Understand. Then, is there anyone who will learn?”
And so does in 54:22, in 54:32 and 54:40.
The truth is code theory itself implies only people who spend their lives counting “hroof” (alphabets) and doing mathematics could understand it or perhaps someone who has divine revelations- of course! I am not blaming or judging the discoverer Rashid Khalifa, as I cannot investigate him and anything past is history and of little use. It's what is done after that!
This so called research turning conveniently into revelation seemed more like discovery perhaps help of few software engineers and programmers, gotten into wrong hands!
But even it was discovered through literally counting every single character, what are they making out of it? Are they not trying to make Quran into a book of puzzles? For what purpose?
And where exactly did Allah SWT gave us these criteria of understanding this Book?
The verse 3:7 clearly guides us that the Muhkamats have been clearly stated and tells us not to move away from the foundations of the Quran. That should be enough for any true believer.
Allah SWT need not convey His message in codes and if so will not claim that He has made it simple to understand. That is contradictory and we as muslims do agree that Allah will not contradict Himself.
He took the task of preserving it on Himself and He challenged all to make just a verse like this.
He told us it is easy to understand and gave the criteria to understand it as… guidance for those who have honest and righteous hearts!
And yes He did tell us it’s a sign for those who believe like many others in the universe.
Yet there are people trying to define purpose for this code as to discover the real Quran!! I don’t know how have they understood the message in this Book or have they at all???
I think Allah knew people will fall for such things. He has purposely set these things in the Book to see who concentrates on the true message and take it as another sign from God, and who indulge and strays from the recommended path ...could be the reason for the verse mentioning NINETEEN with the HELL…who knows another sign!! :roll:
Bottom line is don’t loose the focus from the Real message, keep in mind the Real Purpose of this devine Book And KEEP IT SIMPLE PLEASE! the way it was meant to be. :)
Having said that I must go now it’s getting late and hope to see you all in two weeks inshahAllah!
May Allah keep us all on the right path.
jazakAllah!
-
UmeAimon
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:11 am
- Contact:
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
I hope people will get the point...just one more tiny thing!
Someone discovered other mathematical patterns in Quran too like angels mentioned same times as shayateen, men same as women, month 12 times, days as plural 30 times, word day 365 times...wait! or is it 355 times? Which one makes Islamic lunar year authentic ?... I never checked!
:?
Is it OK?
Someone discovered other mathematical patterns in Quran too like angels mentioned same times as shayateen, men same as women, month 12 times, days as plural 30 times, word day 365 times...wait! or is it 355 times? Which one makes Islamic lunar year authentic ?... I never checked!
:?
Is it OK?
-
Arnold Yasin Mol
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Salaam,
I agree with you that the code does not explain the Quran. This is what the people of Submission.org believe. And many sects have emerged through this understanding.
But to reject the whole pattern just because it doesn't make the Quran 'easy' is the easy way out. We have a clear mathematical correlation in the Quran. And yes, we also have the phenomena of words being mentioned in the same amount.
These things can not be ignored and must be invesitgated. What I understand from the pattern is that it gives each word or sentence in the Quran a place inside the pattern. In this way, the future generation will always know they have the correct Quran. It is to take away even more doubt. And it is part of the verse "And We will certainly preserve."
This claim that the Quran is protected can be verified by the inner structure. As a scientist, I cannot refute the proofs laying in front of me.
I do not believe the pattern has anything to do with the message itself. It is an alarm system, where all generations to come can verify for themselves that the Quran is protected. Which they are obliged too.
And that the Prophet should have known is not true. Many verses in the Quran or phenomena's were unknown to the Prophet. Because the pattern, and the verses on science had nothing to do with creating the Deen itself. The Quran is timeless and thus it is not surprising new things keeps being discovered. But the pattern does not influence the Message. Rashad also believed it didn't. The idea that ' new information' can be found in the pattern is a later creation.
So one thing is important that we do not mistake the pattern as a secret explanation of the Quran. If you would have studied Rashad's work, you would have seen he mostly uses it as a verification system. Only partialy he uses it as an explanation device, but these are allready proven to be unstatistic and cannot meet up to the mathematical science.
It is a confirmation-pattern, so we can see it is indeed protected by God.
So please do not see in black and white, and ignore a scientifical phenomena just because there are people out there who wrongly approach it. It needs to be invesitgated and not ignored.
And Verse 74:30 can be approached from several interpretations:
Fitna also means 'to research the purity of gold' and also 'to throw it in the fire to purify it from unpurities'. And 'malikah' i wouldn't translate as 'angels' but as 'ones in control' which is a closer translation of 'malikah', angel is a given title, not a translation, so here for me it refers to the Laws which are in control of the purity of the Quran. And kafr i would translate as someone who buries the truth for his 'self'.
"And We have not made/appointed/set the wardens of Al-Nar/Light/Fire/Mark/That which Shnies Brightly others than the Laws that control; and We have not made/appointed/set their number but 1) a purifying act (fitna) for those who bury the truth for themselves(kafr); 2)that those who have been given the book may attain certainty and 3)those who believe may increase in faith; and 4)those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and 5)that those in whose hearts is a disease and the ones who bury the truth for themselves may say: What does Allah mean by this mathal/example? Thus does Allah make err whom He wills , and He guides whom He wills , and none knows the forces of your Sustainer but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals."
I agree with you that the code does not explain the Quran. This is what the people of Submission.org believe. And many sects have emerged through this understanding.
But to reject the whole pattern just because it doesn't make the Quran 'easy' is the easy way out. We have a clear mathematical correlation in the Quran. And yes, we also have the phenomena of words being mentioned in the same amount.
These things can not be ignored and must be invesitgated. What I understand from the pattern is that it gives each word or sentence in the Quran a place inside the pattern. In this way, the future generation will always know they have the correct Quran. It is to take away even more doubt. And it is part of the verse "And We will certainly preserve
This claim that the Quran is protected can be verified by the inner structure. As a scientist, I cannot refute the proofs laying in front of me.
I do not believe the pattern has anything to do with the message itself. It is an alarm system, where all generations to come can verify for themselves that the Quran is protected. Which they are obliged too.
And that the Prophet should have known is not true. Many verses in the Quran or phenomena's were unknown to the Prophet. Because the pattern, and the verses on science had nothing to do with creating the Deen itself. The Quran is timeless and thus it is not surprising new things keeps being discovered. But the pattern does not influence the Message. Rashad also believed it didn't. The idea that ' new information' can be found in the pattern is a later creation.
So one thing is important that we do not mistake the pattern as a secret explanation of the Quran. If you would have studied Rashad's work, you would have seen he mostly uses it as a verification system. Only partialy he uses it as an explanation device, but these are allready proven to be unstatistic and cannot meet up to the mathematical science.
It is a confirmation-pattern, so we can see it is indeed protected by God.
So please do not see in black and white, and ignore a scientifical phenomena just because there are people out there who wrongly approach it. It needs to be invesitgated and not ignored.
And Verse 74:30 can be approached from several interpretations:
Fitna also means 'to research the purity of gold' and also 'to throw it in the fire to purify it from unpurities'. And 'malikah' i wouldn't translate as 'angels' but as 'ones in control' which is a closer translation of 'malikah', angel is a given title, not a translation, so here for me it refers to the Laws which are in control of the purity of the Quran. And kafr i would translate as someone who buries the truth for his 'self'.
"And We have not made/appointed/set the wardens of Al-Nar/Light/Fire/Mark/That which Shnies Brightly others than the Laws that control
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Saleena
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Thank you Arnold for the links. Unfortunately the first article only confirmed what I said in my previous post, in that its author does not adequately differentiate between 'text' and 'dialect' (i.e. pronouncation) and ends up creating doubts in the uninitiated mind about the Quran's textual integrity.
Just out of curiosity Arnold - what exactly is your position on the 'readings'? Do you believe the text (unmarked) is intact, and our only problem is differentiating between various readings? Or do you believe there is one reliable reading? If so, which one and why? Just so you know where I stand, I believe there is only one reading (which is known as 'hafs' but is simply the Quraish dialect) and one text; the other dialectual variants appeared later in an attempt to confuse the situation. I do not care whether this reading fits the 19 code or not, because I am not sufficiently convinced by the 19 code in the first place. (In any case, though it makes no difference to me personally, there are some folks who believe that hafs is compatible with the code.)
Ultimately I agree with the overall sentiment of UmeAimon. Looking for mathematical codes, whether for 'proving' the Quran's textual integrity or for any other reason is a waste of time - especially at this point in human history. When there are much bigger and pressing concerns, some of which threaten humanity's very existence, we should be focusing on the proving the ethical veracity of the Quran rather than its so-called mathematical veracity, which after all, is more of an academic pursuit; and incidentally, the second article that you provided me with makes a very similar statement at the end. The author clearly did not believe in the 19 code himself.
A final note: The whole searching for codes concept is just an imitation of a similar attempt in Judeo-Christian tradition to try and find codes to prove things about the Bible, mainly its authenticity but also to support the superstitious idea that it contains hidden prophecies of major future events.
Just out of curiosity Arnold - what exactly is your position on the 'readings'? Do you believe the text (unmarked) is intact, and our only problem is differentiating between various readings? Or do you believe there is one reliable reading? If so, which one and why? Just so you know where I stand, I believe there is only one reading (which is known as 'hafs' but is simply the Quraish dialect) and one text; the other dialectual variants appeared later in an attempt to confuse the situation. I do not care whether this reading fits the 19 code or not, because I am not sufficiently convinced by the 19 code in the first place. (In any case, though it makes no difference to me personally, there are some folks who believe that hafs is compatible with the code.)
Ultimately I agree with the overall sentiment of UmeAimon. Looking for mathematical codes, whether for 'proving' the Quran's textual integrity or for any other reason is a waste of time - especially at this point in human history. When there are much bigger and pressing concerns, some of which threaten humanity's very existence, we should be focusing on the proving the ethical veracity of the Quran rather than its so-called mathematical veracity, which after all, is more of an academic pursuit; and incidentally, the second article that you provided me with makes a very similar statement at the end. The author clearly did not believe in the 19 code himself.
A final note: The whole searching for codes concept is just an imitation of a similar attempt in Judeo-Christian tradition to try and find codes to prove things about the Bible, mainly its authenticity but also to support the superstitious idea that it contains hidden prophecies of major future events.
Deliver! - A news show with a difference, coming soon -
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http://www.deliverancefilms.co.uk
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Ahmed Mateen
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Salaams,
Here is a good short article about code-19
http://free-minds.org/articles/science/ayman19.htm
Here is a good short article about code-19
http://free-minds.org/articles/science/ayman19.htm
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Arnold Yasin Mol
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Salaam Saleena,
I agree with you that we have more urgent matters at our hands. This is why I said that as a scientist, I'm very interrested in this subject. I have studied the Christian and other codes, but none of them created such consistent and relating results as in the Quran.
I have never said that YOU should study it, I said, the ones who can. The Quran will not change in its Message because of the result of this research.
As for the Hafs writing, I do not belive we can just say it is THE Quraish writing. Even Saudie Arabia only took it up in the 1930's I believe. And the Dialectal differences go beyond just prenounciation, they give signifant different meanings sometimes to sentences when it comes to singular or plural.
I do not believe there is one reading that is completely correct. This is why it is important to put together all the readings, and see which differences is correct, by looking at the inner structure and Message. But these details are indeed for future studies. They do not hamper with the Quranic Message. Let's say for example, there would be only one reading left, doesn't matter which one, then we still can create the Deen with that single reading. So we do not need to worry. These indeed are just detail works for the scientists.
And the author does confirm there is a pattern and he does believe in it. But, just as I, he does not believe it has anything to do with the Message itself. Nor does the code rewrite the Quran as some believe. You have mixed up this statement, with the concept of no code at all.
In the end, it is a matter of science and future generations.
I agree with you that we have more urgent matters at our hands. This is why I said that as a scientist, I'm very interrested in this subject. I have studied the Christian and other codes, but none of them created such consistent and relating results as in the Quran.
I have never said that YOU should study it, I said, the ones who can. The Quran will not change in its Message because of the result of this research.
As for the Hafs writing, I do not belive we can just say it is THE Quraish writing. Even Saudie Arabia only took it up in the 1930's I believe. And the Dialectal differences go beyond just prenounciation, they give signifant different meanings sometimes to sentences when it comes to singular or plural.
I do not believe there is one reading that is completely correct. This is why it is important to put together all the readings, and see which differences is correct, by looking at the inner structure and Message. But these details are indeed for future studies. They do not hamper with the Quranic Message. Let's say for example, there would be only one reading left, doesn't matter which one, then we still can create the Deen with that single reading. So we do not need to worry. These indeed are just detail works for the scientists.
And the author does confirm there is a pattern and he does believe in it. But, just as I, he does not believe it has anything to do with the Message itself. Nor does the code rewrite the Quran as some believe. You have mixed up this statement, with the concept of no code at all.
In the end, it is a matter of science and future generations.
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Ahmed Mateen
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Salaam Brother Arnold,
You said:
You said:
These things can not be ignored and must be invesitgated. What I understand from the pattern is that it gives each word or sentence in the Quran a place inside the pattern. In this way, the future generation will always know they have the correct Quran. It is to take away even more doubt. And it is part of the verse "And We will certainly preserve."
This claim that the Quran is protected can be verified by the inner structure. As a scientist, I cannot refute the proofs laying in front of me.
I do not believe the pattern has anything to do with the message itself. It is an alarm system, where all generations to come can verify for themselves that the Quran is protected. Which they are obliged too.
Would you please clarify:
1. Are you assuming that quran can be corrupted? And we can check by the code if corrupted or not?
2. What if using the code we find quran is corrupted?
3. Rashad also found two verses as false based on his code!
4. And also how could we know, using the code, if some chapters or verses have not been removed from the quran already?
5. If nothing can be removed and added in the quran 15:9, then what is the use of the code?
Thanks
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Wa-Alaikum Salaam Arnold,
My apologies for not being sufficiently clear on two points:
1) When I said 'I', it was only meant as 'I, the layman' (not 'I, trying to be a mathematician'). There is no doubt that you have studied this subject and are more knowledgable than perhaps anyone else on the board about it.
2) I did not say there was no code; there may well be a code, though for the time being the 19 code is still under debate even among those who do understand it well. That is what I meant when I said that the code does not sufficiently convince - right now. As you rightly said, this is something for humanity to discover in the long run. It's just that many Muslims are concerned that a similar effort with the Bible is being imitated in some quarters with regards to the Quran, for reasons other than simply the pursuit of Truth. This falls outside of the realm of academic pursuit and into the realm of what some would call mischief-making.
By the way, I only got the impression that the author of the articles you linked me with was not in support of the code from his statement towards the end:
"... there is not one shred of evidence that has been presented on how 19 preserves the text. In-fact, as can be seen in the research of this paper, the opposite is the case as simply removing 1 letter from a chapter creates chaos in the count and causes us to return to the original text for verification."
I admit I had slightly misread him the first time (sorry). He meant that the research is not yet complete, one way or another. He was mainly criticising Dr Khalifa's approach.
As long as Muslims are agreed on the integrity of the Message (and you also have indicated this in your last post) then all other disagreements are relatively unimportant. I only asked for your further clarification and described my (layman) position so that others who may read this thread would not be misled either way.
And thank you Ahmed Mateen for the extra link.Deliver! - A news show with a difference, coming soon -
http://www.deliverancefilms.co.uk
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Salaam brother,
1. Are you assuming that quran can be corrupted? And we can check by the code if corrupted or not?
A: No, but I believe we can use it as a verification method, so the claim of not being corrupted can be backed up by scientifical evidence next to the Arabic flow of recitation and the historical evidence.
2. What if using the code we find quran is corrupted?
A: I do not believe this will be so. As till now, this has not come forward in the research, not all even. The truth of the Quran keeps coming forward that its Message has been uncorrupted for 1400 years.
3. Rashad also found two verses as false based on his code!
This was his interpretation based on the Hafs count, interpretation of Hadith and History. Many other studies have shown the 2 verses do belong there. And Rashad never believed other verses were corrupted, in all of his personal research, onyl two did not fit his counts.
So statistically, this is a very good result. But he made many mistakes in many counts, so the research must be ongoing.
4. And also how could we know, using the code, if some chapters or verses have not been removed from the quran already?
Inner structure and other results as for example the many times Rahman, Raheem, Allah and so on is used. If there were any removed, then this count would have been corrupted immediately.
5. If nothing can be removed and added in the quran 15:9, then what is the use of the code?
Since the Quran wants everything to be testable, God in His Grace even gave proof to show His Scripture has a solid structure we can verify.
This is all it does in my view. A verification method, so the belief in the uncorrupted Quran moves from faith into conviction through evidence, this is the true meaning of Mumin.
Quran, Code 19 and Rashad Khalifa
Salaam Saleena,
No worries, I'm glad you understand my approach now. And yes, the author, Layth Shaiban, mainly critizes Rashad's approach as do I.
These type of things have nothign to do with the Message, but with science, and how the Quran again confronts not only the Sociologist, the Psychiatrist, the Politician, the Economist, the Theologist, but again the Scientist. Again and Again...
Here is a very simple and small presentation of what we know is true on mathematical correlation sin the Quran:
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_01.html
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_02.html
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html
These qualities have not been found in any other scripture, certianly not on this high mathematical level and in consistency.
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Wa-Alaikum Salaam Arnold,
Thank you for the links. I am downloading them to read now and for future reference.
Your posts have been most helpful - thanks again.Deliver! - A news show with a difference, coming soon -
http://www.deliverancefilms.co.uk
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Salaam Arnold,
Here is a very simple and small presentation of what we know is true on mathematical correlation sin the Quran:
These qualities have not been found in any other scripture, certianly not on this high mathematical level and in consistency.
From this I assume you have confirmed the information in the links you provided. I started with the first link and checked the following:
"Day (yawm)" is repeated 365 times in singular form, while its plural and dual forms "days (ayyam and yawmayn)" together are repeated 30 times. The number of repetitions of the word "month" (shahar) is 12. http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_01.html
According to that:
Days singular+dual+plural = 365+30 = 395
The word "MONTH" = 12
This is what I've found:
----------------------------------------
No. Cnt Linked Words
5 - بيوم
23 - واليوم
1 - واياما
1 - وباليوم
44 - ويوم
2 - الايام
41 - اليوم
20 - ايام
3 - اياما
1 - بايام
8 - فاليوم
8 - ليوم
217 - يوم
16 - يوما
5 - يومكم
5 - يومهم
3 - يومي
Days singular+dual+plural = 403
I have yet to check the singular, dual and plural occurances seperately...
http://www.textinmotion.com/words.jsp?word=%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85%D8%A7
Shahar "month" (singular) = 9, (dual) = 2
Shahar "months" (plural) = 10
http://www.textinmotion.com/words.jsp?word=%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%B1
So far I could only check the days and months and found the difference, would you please correct what did I miss..........
Thanks