Forum Members:
I am reading "The Principles of State and Government in Islam" by Muhammad Asad. I have read Pakistan's constitution, and other constitutions, charters, etc. from your side of the world pond.
He mentions being a somewhat integral part of the formulation of ideas for the original constitution in Pakistan. He put forth his ideas based on Qur'anic injunctions and the use of approximately 70 ahadith which he considered Sahih. He then states without going into detail, that certain political considerations somewhat tabled his ideas, although some were used conceptually in the Preamble. He also mentions what sounds like a position paper, "Islamic Constitution Making".
As a military officer my knowledge of such things is minimal. Who were the men who wielded the pen for the Pakistani Constitution? What were the constraints of the process and what were its allowances? What was his affiliation with the other major thinkers of his day regarding Islamic jurisprudence? Under which umbrella did he sit, regarding political thought and which school of jurisprudence did he follow? Is not the current president of Pakistan of the Deobandi leaning?
In advance, my grateful appreciation. Many cooks make a good stew, so as many responses as possible.
R/LCDR Tammy Swofford, USNR, NC
Dallas, Tx.
Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
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tammyswofford
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Arnold Yasin Mol
Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
Salaam my dear Tammy,
I know little on Pakastani ruling, so I hope the Doctor and Taseer will respond to your question. I have moved your post to the Deen section, as I thought it will get more attention it deserves.
I know little on Pakastani ruling, so I hope the Doctor and Taseer will respond to your question. I have moved your post to the Deen section, as I thought it will get more attention it deserves.
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tammyswofford
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Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
Thank you Arnold. I await a response from any member of the forum. I am patient. I am sure it will be well thought out and educational for both myself and others.
R/ Tammy Swofford
Dallas, Texas
R/ Tammy Swofford
Dallas, Texas
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Saleena
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Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
Forum Members:
Who were the men who wielded the pen for the Pakistani Constitution? What were the constraints of the process and what were its allowances? What was his affiliation with the other major thinkers of his day regarding Islamic jurisprudence? Under which umbrella did he sit, regarding political thought and which school of jurisprudence did he follow? Is not the current president of Pakistan of the Deobandi leaning?
Hi Tammy
As such Pakistan's constitution has never truly been settled, mainly because of an on-going debate as to whether its founder sought an Islamic or a secular state (the latter being a western form of democracy). The Pakistan Constituent Assembly was responsible for the first draft which appeared around nine years after it was started. The first significant contribution to the constitution was the Objectives Resolution of 1949, as proposed by Liaquat Ali Khan. there is a wikipedia link here that gives the general outline of the Objectives Resolution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectives_Resolution
Pakistan as a country was officially named 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' in 1956. This implies that the constitution is supposed to represent the ideals of Islam, but since people disagree on what how to politically implement these ideals in practice - the extremes ranging from 'secular Islam' (i.e. separation of religion from the state) to 'Islamic theocracy' - you can see why the constitution is subject to being tweaked and re-edited.
Muhammad Asad was a very lateral thinker and as I understand it he was a close friend of King Abdul Aziz of the Saudi royal family. In Pakistan he was a good friend also of Muhammad Iqbal, another brilliant 'reformist' Islamic philosopher. I do not know what school of thought he formally subscribed to, but I would suspect that he shunned sectarianism, so he probably didn't subscribe to any school of thought. His translation of the Quran is testament to this, as is his choice of friends. He understood Islam in ways that many other Muslim scholars do not. At times his analyses are taken from religious tradition, but overall he was a truly remarkbable individual and a true 'believer' in practice.
Hope this helps
Deliver! - A news show with a difference, coming soon -
http://www.deliverancefilms.co.uk
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tammyswofford
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Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
Thank you for your response. In looking at the link, I was not aware that Jamaat-e-Islami was involved in any of these early activities of state, although I have had a friendship with a scholar who ran the university arm of Jamaat-e-Islami in Pakistan in his younger days and as such, was involved in the early and heady days of statehood, the intellectual circles where ideas are debated and dreams are birthed. Pakistan offered an opportunity to Muslims for which they had longed for many years. I am sure there is much pride of ownership, for the early leaders of the nation who are quite elderly at this point in time, but who have lived to see Pakistan become a nuclear state with a strong standing army.
I am familiar with some of the other names mentioned, although not intimately acquainted with their histories.
Best Regards,
LCDR Tammy Swofford
I am familiar with some of the other names mentioned, although not intimately acquainted with their histories.
Best Regards,
LCDR Tammy Swofford
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Drcheema
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Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
salaamun alaikum
Dear Tammy
My dear sister Saleena made my life easy by referring you to the Objectives Resolution which was the first document to provide the blue prints for the future constitutions. It was no doubt a giant leap in the constitutional history of Pakistan but vague and provided room for sectarianism. It stated that legislation will be in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. Now, every sect has its own definition of sunnah which is backed by the collection of hadith and every sect has its own set of ahadith. Therefore, it did not prove to be as useful as it would have been if at that time Quran was declared as the sole source for law making. But unfortunately it did not happen owing to several reasons.
All the constitutions which were proposed or passed by the assemblies did not last longer and some of them were not truly complete constitutions. Its unfortunate that this young country remained without a complete constitution for decades until 1973 when a unanimously agreed upon constitution was formulated --- thanks to Z A Bhutto the former genius PM of Pakistan.
However the country continued to be unfortunate when a military queue not only frankly violated the constitution rather abandoned, disrespected, humiliated and disfigured it to the extent that no one can see its real face now.
Jamaat-e-Islami, after suffering a humiliation on august 14th 1947, planned to hijack the country and became very active politically. They sabotaged the educational activities in the universities.
There is so much to say about the destructive policies of Jamaat but perhaps you know it already.Nevertheless, I would like to admire the organizational ability of Jamaat. They are very successful in the colleges and universities and enjoy tremendous support from the students but erroneously when these students graduate and move on to live a practical life very rarely they support Jamaat in daily life or in elections which indicates there is some basic flaw in the training of the members and looks like most of the members join jamaat during student life for other reasons. This is why Jamaat can never be a national political party and has no future in the general elections. There are couple of seats in the city of Lahore which they win almost in every election but people who know how the jamaat works know well that these votes do not come from the real natives but thousands of the students of The Punjab university, FC college, Model science college, G C, UET, AIMC, KEMC, FJMC, and many others, cast these votes and they are instructed to register themselves as voters in these constituencies. If there were no student votes, Hafiz salmaan and Liaqat Baloch ( former student leaders and prominent leaders of jamaat) would never in elections. I forgot to mention the PAYAAM ( union of railways workers) is also one of the major source of votes for jamaat. They need to find out the loop holes in their training curriculum which fails jamaat in the general elections and those who voted for them in student life don’t even bother to look back.
Coming back to Allamah Asad, to the best of my knowledge he did not affiliate himself with any sect and was sort of free thinker. He was a close associate of Alamah Iqbal r and infact Allamah Iqbal helped him to get a job in British India.
After the Pakistan came into being Allamah Asad was appointed as the Director of the Islamic ideology council and he worked a lot to formulate Islamic jurisprudence but the work remained incomplete, perhaps he got dishearten like many other sincere people because of the deaf and mute establishment and he decided to go back.
I wish Allamah Asad had stayed more and enriched the Pakistani society with his amazing thoughts. Perhaps our sectarian society could not accommodate a progressive thought.
The book or the work you mentioned was perhaps authored in those days when he was helping Government of Pakistan.
President Musharaff Parwaiz does not sound to be deobandi. Although i have little knowledge of his very private religious ideas but his actions and policies don’t give any gesture of any such inclination rather he sounds more progressive. In Pakistani political circles, most of the political leaders hide their religious inclinations such as our ex-caretaker PM CHaudhry Shujaat is a shia but he and his family never publicly showed this affiliation. Ex-Primier Bainazeer is also a shia but does not display
publicly.
Some resources claim that Musharaff has liking for the work of Allama G A Parwaiz but i personally has no way to verify it.
Who were the men who wielded the pen for the Pakistani Constitution? What were the constraints of the process and what were its allowances?
The first question is hard to answer since it needs the whole history of over 50 decades to be told.
However, i can answer the second one in brief.
To understand this, one has to have a good insight into Pakistani society, culture , the psychology of people and the political aspects.
It’s a very complicated society to say in brief. There are many factors which shape our political out look. The society is partly tribal with primitive mentality, partly religious with focus on blind following, and partly progressive but to be more precise pseudo progressive or rebellions of religion with out studying Quran directly and have abandoned the Deen based on hearsay so in my point of view they are also no better than sunnis or shias.
The political leaders who were involved in the law making either had no knowledge of the society (being an elite) or had an agenda (such as mullahs, zamindars( land lords), and now a new addition industrialists). They did what suited their purpose. Hardly anyone acted responsibly.
The landlord does not want any legislation which would threaten his proprietary rights over hundreds and thousand of acres and abuse of farm workers. Mullahs would never allow any law to formulate which would ban the sectarianism since its his bread and butter. Industrialist can not afford any law which would force him to pay the laborer and the farmers appropriately and justly. Pseudo-progressive also has his ulterior motives. This group is small but powerful and has control of the establishment.
These factors leave one unable to formulate a constitution based solely on Quran.
Until the time we fix the basic flaw there is no hope for the harmony in the society. The poor will grow poorer and rich will get richer.
ZAB, was the greatest change in the political history of the country. He emancipated the society to a great extent. It was in his time and for the first time that street vendors and laborers won the general elections against the landlords and industrialists and gods of the Pakistani politics. One time, I was sitting on the front lobby of my hostel and was having an older servant of the hostel. He was from a remote village of my district ( Gujrat, Punjab, Pakistan). I asked him one simple question and his answer stunned me. I had asked what difference ZAB made in the life of a common man. He said,” Before ZAB one police constable would come into the village and the whole village would shiver with fear but in ZAB’s time a shoemaker could go and grab the Police inspector from his collar”. This simple answer reflected such an enormous change in the society. ZAB liberated the people from the lower socio-economic cadre from the chains of slavery.
I did not mean to pay my tribute to this genius but was just a passing remark about the kind of change he brought into the society.
I hope it helps, if not let me know I will try to elaborate more. BTW, this response is being typed while I’m busy with new admissions from the ER ---- smile, I’m sure you can feel my pain.
Best regards
Dear Tammy
My dear sister Saleena made my life easy by referring you to the Objectives Resolution which was the first document to provide the blue prints for the future constitutions. It was no doubt a giant leap in the constitutional history of Pakistan but vague and provided room for sectarianism. It stated that legislation will be in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. Now, every sect has its own definition of sunnah which is backed by the collection of hadith and every sect has its own set of ahadith. Therefore, it did not prove to be as useful as it would have been if at that time Quran was declared as the sole source for law making. But unfortunately it did not happen owing to several reasons.
All the constitutions which were proposed or passed by the assemblies did not last longer and some of them were not truly complete constitutions. Its unfortunate that this young country remained without a complete constitution for decades until 1973 when a unanimously agreed upon constitution was formulated --- thanks to Z A Bhutto the former genius PM of Pakistan.
However the country continued to be unfortunate when a military queue not only frankly violated the constitution rather abandoned, disrespected, humiliated and disfigured it to the extent that no one can see its real face now.
Jamaat-e-Islami, after suffering a humiliation on august 14th 1947, planned to hijack the country and became very active politically. They sabotaged the educational activities in the universities.
There is so much to say about the destructive policies of Jamaat but perhaps you know it already.Nevertheless, I would like to admire the organizational ability of Jamaat. They are very successful in the colleges and universities and enjoy tremendous support from the students but erroneously when these students graduate and move on to live a practical life very rarely they support Jamaat in daily life or in elections which indicates there is some basic flaw in the training of the members and looks like most of the members join jamaat during student life for other reasons. This is why Jamaat can never be a national political party and has no future in the general elections. There are couple of seats in the city of Lahore which they win almost in every election but people who know how the jamaat works know well that these votes do not come from the real natives but thousands of the students of The Punjab university, FC college, Model science college, G C, UET, AIMC, KEMC, FJMC, and many others, cast these votes and they are instructed to register themselves as voters in these constituencies. If there were no student votes, Hafiz salmaan and Liaqat Baloch ( former student leaders and prominent leaders of jamaat) would never in elections. I forgot to mention the PAYAAM ( union of railways workers) is also one of the major source of votes for jamaat. They need to find out the loop holes in their training curriculum which fails jamaat in the general elections and those who voted for them in student life don’t even bother to look back.
Coming back to Allamah Asad, to the best of my knowledge he did not affiliate himself with any sect and was sort of free thinker. He was a close associate of Alamah Iqbal r and infact Allamah Iqbal helped him to get a job in British India.
After the Pakistan came into being Allamah Asad was appointed as the Director of the Islamic ideology council and he worked a lot to formulate Islamic jurisprudence but the work remained incomplete, perhaps he got dishearten like many other sincere people because of the deaf and mute establishment and he decided to go back.
I wish Allamah Asad had stayed more and enriched the Pakistani society with his amazing thoughts. Perhaps our sectarian society could not accommodate a progressive thought.
The book or the work you mentioned was perhaps authored in those days when he was helping Government of Pakistan.
President Musharaff Parwaiz does not sound to be deobandi. Although i have little knowledge of his very private religious ideas but his actions and policies don’t give any gesture of any such inclination rather he sounds more progressive. In Pakistani political circles, most of the political leaders hide their religious inclinations such as our ex-caretaker PM CHaudhry Shujaat is a shia but he and his family never publicly showed this affiliation. Ex-Primier Bainazeer is also a shia but does not display
publicly.
Some resources claim that Musharaff has liking for the work of Allama G A Parwaiz but i personally has no way to verify it.
Who were the men who wielded the pen for the Pakistani Constitution? What were the constraints of the process and what were its allowances?
The first question is hard to answer since it needs the whole history of over 50 decades to be told.
However, i can answer the second one in brief.
To understand this, one has to have a good insight into Pakistani society, culture , the psychology of people and the political aspects.
It’s a very complicated society to say in brief. There are many factors which shape our political out look. The society is partly tribal with primitive mentality, partly religious with focus on blind following, and partly progressive but to be more precise pseudo progressive or rebellions of religion with out studying Quran directly and have abandoned the Deen based on hearsay so in my point of view they are also no better than sunnis or shias.
The political leaders who were involved in the law making either had no knowledge of the society (being an elite) or had an agenda (such as mullahs, zamindars( land lords), and now a new addition industrialists). They did what suited their purpose. Hardly anyone acted responsibly.
The landlord does not want any legislation which would threaten his proprietary rights over hundreds and thousand of acres and abuse of farm workers. Mullahs would never allow any law to formulate which would ban the sectarianism since its his bread and butter. Industrialist can not afford any law which would force him to pay the laborer and the farmers appropriately and justly. Pseudo-progressive also has his ulterior motives. This group is small but powerful and has control of the establishment.
These factors leave one unable to formulate a constitution based solely on Quran.
Until the time we fix the basic flaw there is no hope for the harmony in the society. The poor will grow poorer and rich will get richer.
ZAB, was the greatest change in the political history of the country. He emancipated the society to a great extent. It was in his time and for the first time that street vendors and laborers won the general elections against the landlords and industrialists and gods of the Pakistani politics. One time, I was sitting on the front lobby of my hostel and was having an older servant of the hostel. He was from a remote village of my district ( Gujrat, Punjab, Pakistan). I asked him one simple question and his answer stunned me. I had asked what difference ZAB made in the life of a common man. He said,” Before ZAB one police constable would come into the village and the whole village would shiver with fear but in ZAB’s time a shoemaker could go and grab the Police inspector from his collar”. This simple answer reflected such an enormous change in the society. ZAB liberated the people from the lower socio-economic cadre from the chains of slavery.
I did not mean to pay my tribute to this genius but was just a passing remark about the kind of change he brought into the society.
I hope it helps, if not let me know I will try to elaborate more. BTW, this response is being typed while I’m busy with new admissions from the ER ---- smile, I’m sure you can feel my pain.
Best regards
Taseer Cheema,MD
New York
New York
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tammyswofford
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Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
Dr. Cheema,
First of all let me respond that yes, I am familiar with the manner in which Jamaat-e-Islami operates within the university power structure of the university system in Pakistan. I am well read in that area. And the organizational skills and intense indoctrination in loyalty are of the same useful function which maintain and supply the manpower needs for the power structure of umbrella organizations such as al-Qaedah. The draw of such organizations to the young is to harness their zeal to believe that they are necessary for a grand purpose, an actual Willed Purpose of Allah. Mercifully, men marry, procreate and suddenly realize that their purpose is much simpler than conquering the world. They have a wife and three small mouths to feed and Prophet Muhammad said that poverty did not justify infanticide, and to not even THINK of burying their daughters anymore, so then they face the greater reality: If they spend all of their times at secret meetings, their families will starve. The fearless few, are skimmed off the top and rise to further positions of leadership, while the majority go on with their daily lives hopefully not having done too much damage in the process.
A couple years ago I exchanged e mails and received articles from Pervez Hoodbhoy, who is a moderate thinker and writes quite a bit regarding Pakistan. One article which comes to mind was written for Foreign Affairs in Nov/Dec 2004 and he does allude to some of the things you mentioned, the alignment of a land class with the state, etc. He had sent me another article on which he was working and for the life of me I cannot remember the title. But he spoke of the educational system in Pakistan being deficient in math and sciences and bemoaned too jihadi of a curriculum, even at the elementary levels. He made a statement of analogy in that regard which I have not forgotten saying that "Adult tigers do not behave as baby tigers." As such, such an indoctrination into adult topics too early, can have detrimental effect to the development of the psychologically rational man. (That is my interpretation) And we are just on the cusp of seeing what allowance of a jihadi curriculum will produce in the thought processes of the next generation of adult Muslim men and women. They find themselves extrinsically compressed by forces of globalization, access to internet cafe which present to them a life which may be unattainable, government corruption which limits their own potential and suddenly it all becomes very clear. It is the fault of the West and our axis of evil. sigh I believe Pakistan is progressing on the educational front, but still only one in nine females makes it past the eighth grade in school. I cannot remember the male to female ratio on college entrance but it is also grossly disproportionate.
Muhammad Asad writes in an interesting manner. While acknowledging that the State must have powers of 'amr and nahy (command and prohibition) he further notes that while some Muslims view Shari'ah as almost Canon Law, they negate the necessary inclusion of fiqh and qiyaas in the corpus juris so that what is presented as "law" is a fossilized version which does not meet the demands of the day.
I could discourse more, but just as you are doing ER admissions, I am on call again for the night. And as two nights ago, I had two "call backs" it would be wise for me to get to bed.
Thank you for the gift of time, Dr. Cheema.
Tammy Swofford
First of all let me respond that yes, I am familiar with the manner in which Jamaat-e-Islami operates within the university power structure of the university system in Pakistan. I am well read in that area. And the organizational skills and intense indoctrination in loyalty are of the same useful function which maintain and supply the manpower needs for the power structure of umbrella organizations such as al-Qaedah. The draw of such organizations to the young is to harness their zeal to believe that they are necessary for a grand purpose, an actual Willed Purpose of Allah. Mercifully, men marry, procreate and suddenly realize that their purpose is much simpler than conquering the world. They have a wife and three small mouths to feed and Prophet Muhammad said that poverty did not justify infanticide, and to not even THINK of burying their daughters anymore, so then they face the greater reality: If they spend all of their times at secret meetings, their families will starve. The fearless few, are skimmed off the top and rise to further positions of leadership, while the majority go on with their daily lives hopefully not having done too much damage in the process.
A couple years ago I exchanged e mails and received articles from Pervez Hoodbhoy, who is a moderate thinker and writes quite a bit regarding Pakistan. One article which comes to mind was written for Foreign Affairs in Nov/Dec 2004 and he does allude to some of the things you mentioned, the alignment of a land class with the state, etc. He had sent me another article on which he was working and for the life of me I cannot remember the title. But he spoke of the educational system in Pakistan being deficient in math and sciences and bemoaned too jihadi of a curriculum, even at the elementary levels. He made a statement of analogy in that regard which I have not forgotten saying that "Adult tigers do not behave as baby tigers." As such, such an indoctrination into adult topics too early, can have detrimental effect to the development of the psychologically rational man. (That is my interpretation) And we are just on the cusp of seeing what allowance of a jihadi curriculum will produce in the thought processes of the next generation of adult Muslim men and women. They find themselves extrinsically compressed by forces of globalization, access to internet cafe which present to them a life which may be unattainable, government corruption which limits their own potential and suddenly it all becomes very clear. It is the fault of the West and our axis of evil. sigh I believe Pakistan is progressing on the educational front, but still only one in nine females makes it past the eighth grade in school. I cannot remember the male to female ratio on college entrance but it is also grossly disproportionate.
Muhammad Asad writes in an interesting manner. While acknowledging that the State must have powers of 'amr and nahy (command and prohibition) he further notes that while some Muslims view Shari'ah as almost Canon Law, they negate the necessary inclusion of fiqh and qiyaas in the corpus juris so that what is presented as "law" is a fossilized version which does not meet the demands of the day.
I could discourse more, but just as you are doing ER admissions, I am on call again for the night. And as two nights ago, I had two "call backs" it would be wise for me to get to bed.
Thank you for the gift of time, Dr. Cheema.
Tammy Swofford
-
Saleena
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Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
Dr. Cheema has elaborated perfectly on the problem with the Objectives Resolution, namely that because of sectarian differences of opinion on what Islam is, and how to implement it politically (characterised in the Resolution loosely as 'Quran and Sunnah'), it made settling the constitution very difficult. In any case, as things stand now, even a rock solid constitution would do little to ease the problems of the country, as their are too many wannabe dictators ready to do as they please as soon as they seize power. Rights and development of the community (regardless of caste and creed) are only ever mentioned in a rhetoric spirit, and serving self-interest is all in practice. As stated in the Quran, God never changes the condition of a people until they make a change in themselves.
Dr. Cheema is also right about the Jamaat-i-Islami. Their real power lies in their missionary zeal; but their political clout is comparitively very low. They only grab the headlines as often as they do because they raise so much controversy.
On President Musharraf:
I have read - and this is purely Internet gossip - some people claim he is a of a hardliner Deobandi sect, and others that he is (or his wife is) a Qadiani (a sect which is not recognised as Muslim even by the religion that goes by the name Islam). But strictly speaking it doesn't matter. What should matter is his competancy as a leader. He is often quoted in papers as being 'avowedly against sectarianism', though most journalists interpret this to mean that he is a 'secularist'. After all, what kind of Muslim doesn't belong to a sect(?) :roll: This is a claim that was even made about the founder of Pakistan, M.A. Jinnah. Funny how history repeats itself. There's an interesting story about that actually, but I won't go into that here.
The Pakistani government's recent decision to 'rewrite' the education curriculum to be less religiously ideologised, or more 'secularised', (see Outlook India, 25 December 2006) will probably have been welcomed by Pervez Hoodbhoy, who, as I understand it, has campaigned a long time for such changes to be brought about. I cannot comment on this myself, as I have never seen any Pakistani education textbooks.
Just out of curiosity Tammy, what has brought your attention to Asad and Pakistan (other than the fact you are reading Asad's book)?
Dr. Cheema is also right about the Jamaat-i-Islami. Their real power lies in their missionary zeal; but their political clout is comparitively very low. They only grab the headlines as often as they do because they raise so much controversy.
On President Musharraf:
I have read - and this is purely Internet gossip - some people claim he is a of a hardliner Deobandi sect, and others that he is (or his wife is) a Qadiani (a sect which is not recognised as Muslim even by the religion that goes by the name Islam). But strictly speaking it doesn't matter. What should matter is his competancy as a leader. He is often quoted in papers as being 'avowedly against sectarianism', though most journalists interpret this to mean that he is a 'secularist'. After all, what kind of Muslim doesn't belong to a sect(?) :roll: This is a claim that was even made about the founder of Pakistan, M.A. Jinnah. Funny how history repeats itself. There's an interesting story about that actually, but I won't go into that here.
I believe Pakistan is progressing on the educational front...
The Pakistani government's recent decision to 'rewrite' the education curriculum to be less religiously ideologised, or more 'secularised', (see Outlook India, 25 December 2006) will probably have been welcomed by Pervez Hoodbhoy, who, as I understand it, has campaigned a long time for such changes to be brought about. I cannot comment on this myself, as I have never seen any Pakistani education textbooks.
Just out of curiosity Tammy, what has brought your attention to Asad and Pakistan (other than the fact you are reading Asad's book)?
Deliver! - A news show with a difference, coming soon -
http://www.deliverancefilms.co.uk
http://www.deliverancefilms.co.uk
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Drcheema
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Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
salaam
There is a lot of noise in the western media that Pakistani Text books preach something which in a sarcastic way is called "jihadi".
And there are people who really buy this story.
I do not speak of the "madrassah" syllabous since i never joined any.
I was born and raised in Pakistan, in a hard core sunni district Gujrat. The text books i was taught and i also know the syllabous is not significantly different now, never had any element which could intoxicate or brain wash the kids to become suicide boimbers or terrorists.From "kachee" ( pre-school) to Medical college i never encountered any thing like that. Rather the school syllabous introduced me to the greatest poets and writers of the indian subcontinanat. It was this syllabous which introduced me to Ghalib, Meer, dard, inshaa, iqbal, Ghulam abbas, munshee praim chand, qurah tul ain haider, aatish, nadeem qasmi, mohammd hussain azaad, mirza farhatullah baig, deputy nazeer ahmad,arash maleesani, mustafa zaidi, faiz, hafeez jalandhary, jameel ud din aali, altaf hussain haali, sir syed, and the lsit is endless. The writtings of these people never inspired anyone to kill an innocent.
the syllabous was diverse, it not only presented Khalid bin waleed R as a hero of islam but also portrayed ALexander as the world hero. Its an other story that in the later years i realised that Alexander was not a hero but a dacoit,a terrorist, who brought death and destruction to not only his own people but to the rest of the world.
Why it is so that when a western school syllabous portrays certain people as heros in the history books its quite acceptable but presenting Khalid bin Waled R, tarik bin ziyaad, mohammad bin qasim and moosa bin nuzair as muslim heroes is equated with teaching "jihadi" thing which is a derogatory term in the western culture these days.
My dear, there is nothing wrong with the regular school syllabous, these schools have produced millions of doctors, pharmacists, vetnarians, physicists, chemists, biologists, attorneys, writers, teachers,engineers, technicians, and peace loving citizens.
Parwaiz hoodbhi is a character, he tries to comment on the things he has no knowledge of. Few months ago he appeared on a tv show and disappointed me to great extent. I put him in that category of pseudo intellectuals who know nothing of Quran and have abandoned Islam with out understanding it but trusted the hearsay of mullahs.
These kind of people have ulterior motives and indulge on controversy for the sake of being in the news. This group which includes him, asma jahangir and many others like them do everything to win the support from the western NGO's. they are shalow people and have nothing to offer.
After that interview i sent an email to hoodbhi asking him some questions and also corrected him fro certain things he had said in the show but he never bothered to reply.
Take care
There is a lot of noise in the western media that Pakistani Text books preach something which in a sarcastic way is called "jihadi".
And there are people who really buy this story.
I do not speak of the "madrassah" syllabous since i never joined any.
I was born and raised in Pakistan, in a hard core sunni district Gujrat. The text books i was taught and i also know the syllabous is not significantly different now, never had any element which could intoxicate or brain wash the kids to become suicide boimbers or terrorists.From "kachee" ( pre-school) to Medical college i never encountered any thing like that. Rather the school syllabous introduced me to the greatest poets and writers of the indian subcontinanat. It was this syllabous which introduced me to Ghalib, Meer, dard, inshaa, iqbal, Ghulam abbas, munshee praim chand, qurah tul ain haider, aatish, nadeem qasmi, mohammd hussain azaad, mirza farhatullah baig, deputy nazeer ahmad,arash maleesani, mustafa zaidi, faiz, hafeez jalandhary, jameel ud din aali, altaf hussain haali, sir syed, and the lsit is endless. The writtings of these people never inspired anyone to kill an innocent.
the syllabous was diverse, it not only presented Khalid bin waleed R as a hero of islam but also portrayed ALexander as the world hero. Its an other story that in the later years i realised that Alexander was not a hero but a dacoit,a terrorist, who brought death and destruction to not only his own people but to the rest of the world.
Why it is so that when a western school syllabous portrays certain people as heros in the history books its quite acceptable but presenting Khalid bin Waled R, tarik bin ziyaad, mohammad bin qasim and moosa bin nuzair as muslim heroes is equated with teaching "jihadi" thing which is a derogatory term in the western culture these days.
My dear, there is nothing wrong with the regular school syllabous, these schools have produced millions of doctors, pharmacists, vetnarians, physicists, chemists, biologists, attorneys, writers, teachers,engineers, technicians, and peace loving citizens.
Parwaiz hoodbhi is a character, he tries to comment on the things he has no knowledge of. Few months ago he appeared on a tv show and disappointed me to great extent. I put him in that category of pseudo intellectuals who know nothing of Quran and have abandoned Islam with out understanding it but trusted the hearsay of mullahs.
These kind of people have ulterior motives and indulge on controversy for the sake of being in the news. This group which includes him, asma jahangir and many others like them do everything to win the support from the western NGO's. they are shalow people and have nothing to offer.
After that interview i sent an email to hoodbhi asking him some questions and also corrected him fro certain things he had said in the show but he never bothered to reply.
Take care
Taseer Cheema,MD
New York
New York
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tammyswofford
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:59 pm
- Contact:
Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
Yes, Khalid bin al-Walid (sp) is recognized as a brilliant military strategist under Abu Bakr, and I believe also Caliph Umar. Under Caliph Abu Bakr a beggining troop strength divided under four commands swept into Syria in A.H. 13 according to my notes. The Caliph set forth some valid leadership rules for chain of command which set the stage for sweeping conquests. Is not Khalid bin Walid the same one who issued the threat against Persia stating "I bring a people against you who love death more than your people love life?" This is considered the rallying cry of jihad.
Regarding the Deobandi sect, one scholar told me that the Deobandi are mere "clerks" when it comes to understanding Islamic jursiprudence. I am just quoting here!
Regarding Dr. Hoodbhoy. He is an atheist. When I had correspondence with him I believe he was teaching nuclear physics in Islamabad. Unsure where he is now as I have lost track of him.
Regarding Pakistan, my interest extends to both Pakistan and Afghanistan for reasons of my own military research. I am currently reading Muhammad Asad, much as in the past I have read Dr. Muzammil Siddiqui, Dr. Muhammad Nur Abdullah from the Sudan, writings of Abid Ullah Jan, Muhammad bin Jamil Zeno, Grand Mufti Sheikh bin Baz, Yamin Zakariah, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani, Dr. M. Amir Ali, etc. I have widely read the writings of contemporary ulema and contemporary political Islamic organizations and am widely read on Constitutional documents and penal codes. I have never visited Pakistan. I do retain a stronger interest to set my foot on the soil of Afghanistan. I retain the position of a student, not a teacher.
R/ Tammy Swofford
Regarding the Deobandi sect, one scholar told me that the Deobandi are mere "clerks" when it comes to understanding Islamic jursiprudence. I am just quoting here!
Regarding Dr. Hoodbhoy. He is an atheist. When I had correspondence with him I believe he was teaching nuclear physics in Islamabad. Unsure where he is now as I have lost track of him.
Regarding Pakistan, my interest extends to both Pakistan and Afghanistan for reasons of my own military research. I am currently reading Muhammad Asad, much as in the past I have read Dr. Muzammil Siddiqui, Dr. Muhammad Nur Abdullah from the Sudan, writings of Abid Ullah Jan, Muhammad bin Jamil Zeno, Grand Mufti Sheikh bin Baz, Yamin Zakariah, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani, Dr. M. Amir Ali, etc. I have widely read the writings of contemporary ulema and contemporary political Islamic organizations and am widely read on Constitutional documents and penal codes. I have never visited Pakistan. I do retain a stronger interest to set my foot on the soil of Afghanistan. I retain the position of a student, not a teacher.
R/ Tammy Swofford
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Drcheema
- Posts: 50
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- Contact:
Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
"I bring a people against you who love death more than your people love life?" This is considered the rallying cry of jihad.
dear Tammy
How conviniently, you take these reports authentic and how easily you term them "jihaadi" when it suits your purpose.
How about " either you are with us or with the enemy"????????
Is it also "jihaadi" or "crusader's cry"?
An athiest is in fact stuck at the first stage of being a muslim ( la I'lah) and the next leap to "illallah" needs wisdom which not many make use of it.
Atheism is an effort but half hearted.Hoodbhoy is an athiet without studying the religion properly. He still teaches nuclear physics but despite being a science teacher he lacks the ability to see through the fog of uncertainity.
No doubt you have read many books of muslim authors but to be frank your intension is not to learn but to find material to support the cause of the people who write your pay check.This is why you are unable to diffrentiate between Islam and what we have today in the name of Isam. And this bias does not let you see the reality. An urdu poet said something like this" a scientist can learn about the petals by stripping them away from the flower but fails to analyze the whole flower".
Your example is exactly like that scientist who has stripped the petals of this flower ( islam and muslims and their culture) placed on the examination table and trying to learn every piece of it but this way you will learn only the "piece" and will never be able to appreciate the beauty of the flower.
if you really want to learn Pakistan and its culture, you need to learn urdu which will open the whole world of beauty unto you. Believe me it will be hard for you to find the equal of urdu poets and writers. More over, if you become able to understand Punjabi and read "saif ul Malook", you wnt like to read any thing else on literature. Punjab is a land of romance and love, colored with the wisdome of Waris shah and Mian Mohamamd Bakhsh. Sindh will cause you euphoria with the rhymes of sachal sar mast and shah latif bhitti, sarhad will send you on romantic journey through the rough terrains on the tunes of khatak and balochastan's dances and folk lores will sooth your nights and deliver peaceful sleep you ever had.
If you ever plan to set your foot on the soil of my Sohni Dharti, let me know, i will be glad to be your host.
I am sad that after visiting the forum for such a long time, you have not understood what "Jihaad" is.
Regards
Taseer
dear Tammy
How conviniently, you take these reports authentic and how easily you term them "jihaadi" when it suits your purpose.
How about " either you are with us or with the enemy"????????
Is it also "jihaadi" or "crusader's cry"?
An athiest is in fact stuck at the first stage of being a muslim ( la I'lah) and the next leap to "illallah" needs wisdom which not many make use of it.
Atheism is an effort but half hearted.Hoodbhoy is an athiet without studying the religion properly. He still teaches nuclear physics but despite being a science teacher he lacks the ability to see through the fog of uncertainity.
No doubt you have read many books of muslim authors but to be frank your intension is not to learn but to find material to support the cause of the people who write your pay check.This is why you are unable to diffrentiate between Islam and what we have today in the name of Isam. And this bias does not let you see the reality. An urdu poet said something like this" a scientist can learn about the petals by stripping them away from the flower but fails to analyze the whole flower".
Your example is exactly like that scientist who has stripped the petals of this flower ( islam and muslims and their culture) placed on the examination table and trying to learn every piece of it but this way you will learn only the "piece" and will never be able to appreciate the beauty of the flower.
if you really want to learn Pakistan and its culture, you need to learn urdu which will open the whole world of beauty unto you. Believe me it will be hard for you to find the equal of urdu poets and writers. More over, if you become able to understand Punjabi and read "saif ul Malook", you wnt like to read any thing else on literature. Punjab is a land of romance and love, colored with the wisdome of Waris shah and Mian Mohamamd Bakhsh. Sindh will cause you euphoria with the rhymes of sachal sar mast and shah latif bhitti, sarhad will send you on romantic journey through the rough terrains on the tunes of khatak and balochastan's dances and folk lores will sooth your nights and deliver peaceful sleep you ever had.
If you ever plan to set your foot on the soil of my Sohni Dharti, let me know, i will be glad to be your host.
I am sad that after visiting the forum for such a long time, you have not understood what "Jihaad" is.
Regards
Taseer
Taseer Cheema,MD
New York
New York
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tammyswofford
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:59 pm
- Contact:
Muhammad Asad--Question on forming Constitution of Pakistan
Dear Respected Taseer,
Yes it saddens me also, my lack of cultural intelligence, which is indeed my personal quest, but a slow passage because of my own cultural memory which lies in the West and not the East. None, can shed their cultural underpinnings and neither should there be the necessity for rational people to become that which they are not! I also hope for the grace and love to cover my own foibles, missteps and offenses. To be able to speak the truth, in love, is the difficult balance to find, is it not? You have shown that ability, in your previous post and I honor you for it.
I read the Urdu couplets that I can find in English, I love the poet Rumi and find him comparable to John Donne, except when Rumi speaks of love, his reference is to the Divine, while John Donne, loved women in general.
I know your history and culture is rich, America is still a "toddler" by comparison, and I do not know a word of Urdu at this point. smile
Having read "The Kite Runner" and "The Bookseller of Kabul" I would love to visit Afghanistan. The "Bookseller of Kabul" reminds me of "Five Families" by Oscar Lewis, which is a socio-anthropological work regarding Mexico, the land of my childhood. I have relatives who lost a son in Afghanistan, prior to the arrival of the Soviets. He drowned, in one of its many rivers.
Best Regards,
Tammy Swofford
Yes it saddens me also, my lack of cultural intelligence, which is indeed my personal quest, but a slow passage because of my own cultural memory which lies in the West and not the East. None, can shed their cultural underpinnings and neither should there be the necessity for rational people to become that which they are not! I also hope for the grace and love to cover my own foibles, missteps and offenses. To be able to speak the truth, in love, is the difficult balance to find, is it not? You have shown that ability, in your previous post and I honor you for it.
I read the Urdu couplets that I can find in English, I love the poet Rumi and find him comparable to John Donne, except when Rumi speaks of love, his reference is to the Divine, while John Donne, loved women in general.
I know your history and culture is rich, America is still a "toddler" by comparison, and I do not know a word of Urdu at this point. smile
Having read "The Kite Runner" and "The Bookseller of Kabul" I would love to visit Afghanistan. The "Bookseller of Kabul" reminds me of "Five Families" by Oscar Lewis, which is a socio-anthropological work regarding Mexico, the land of my childhood. I have relatives who lost a son in Afghanistan, prior to the arrival of the Soviets. He drowned, in one of its many rivers.
Best Regards,
Tammy Swofford