gog magog !!!!

[zahida]

AoA!!
i just read in chapter 18 about zulqarnain and gog magog.
does it refer to humans ? as is common concept ?
while reading it another view came to my mind gog [ya joj] in 18:94 according to burhan root search means infamous corruptor...
can it mean that there was some kind of deficiency in soil that was creating problem in zulqarnain context ? as it is said that space between mountains was filled with iron,cooper and tal.iron and copper seem to be related to nutrient,,,,also burned ashes if placed in a soil which has some problem like soil salinity[not sure if this is correct term,,,it happens that white surface is formed on soil and nothing can be grown there)...so burned ashed along with other nutrients which r deficient if added make it proper balanced soil.....can it mean that gog magog instead of humans were some similar thing which had corrupted the land between two vallies and it was causing economic inbalance or poverty so ppl were fighting etc?
or it means that there was a nation who used o live b/w 2 valleys and they requested zulqarnain to fix their system,,,,can iron be taken as symbol of moral strength ? similarly copper and tal can be symbols....for something that I don’t know ...also in 21:96 it seems again its some kind of corrupted system ....that causes unbalance in society.

[Arnold Yasin Mol]

I think Muhammed Ali's commentary on this is worth mentioning.

Muhammed Ali is a man with 2 sides, one I admire and the other that I do not understand. He was Ahmediya, a follower of Ghulam Ahmed who had proclaimed himself Medhi and even a prophet.

After the death of Ahmed, Muhammed Ali broke away from the Ahmediya group as he accussedthem of making Ahmed into a prophet, lying about what he had proclaimed and so on. Saying that Ahmed only believed himself to be a mujadeen, a reformer.

How much this is all true, I do not know, and do not really care anyway. But Muhammed Ali followed the rational line of thinking when it came to Islam and how he believed the Ahmediya movement shoudl be.

He was the first Muslim scholar to make an English translation of the Quran, and that translation became the basis for almost all translations that came after it. Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, Sher Ali and so on, all used his as a basis for their work.

Although he still approached Islam as a religion, he already understood the Quran to be a constitution for a society and many of his approaches and understandings were highly advanced for his time. His commentaries are very rational, although sometimes to heavely based on Hadith and the Bible, his insight in the political, social, economical and metaphorical message of the Quran is amazing in many ways.

Also his extensive research on history sometimes astounds me.

But his religious traditional side and his rational progressive side clashed many times, this is seen in that his commentary on the Quranic verses many times says something different then his translation of the verses.

The commentary is mostly rational, but his translation follows the traditonal tafseers.

Almost a split personality.

But lets get back to Gog and Magog and see how extensive research Muhammed Ali has done on this.

You can see that he comments every seperate verse. 83 stands for verse 83 of chapter 18 and so on.:

83a. The word qarn means a horn, as also a generation or a century, and Dhu-lqarnain therefore literally means the two-horned one, or one belonging to two generations
or two centuries. The reference here seems to be to the two-horned ram of Daniel’s vision (Dan. 8:3), which he interpreted as the Kingdoms of Media and Persia, which were combined into a single kingdom under one ruler, Cyrus, who is erroneously called Darius in the Bible (En. Bib. and Jewish En., Art. “Darius”).

The reference in Daniel’s vision is, however, not to Cyrus but to Darius I Hystaspes (521-485 B.C.), “who allowed
the Jews to rebuild their temple, and is referred to in Ezra 4:5, 24; 5:5; 6:1; Hag. 1:1; 2:10; Zech. 1:7, and probably in Neh. 12:22. His liberality towards the Jews is in complete
accord with what we know otherwise of his general policy in religious matters towards the subject nations” (En. Bib. “Darius”).

That “the two-horned ram” of Daniel’s vision is the king of Media and Persia is made plain in Daniel’s book, where the interpretation of the dream is given in the following words: “The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the Kings of Media and Persia” (Dan. 8:20). The reference in the Qur’ån in the history of Dhu-l-qarnain is to Darius I: “Darius was the organizer of the Persian Empire. His conquests served to round off the boundaries of his realm in Armenia, the Caucasus, and India, and along the
Turanian steppes and the highlands of Central Asia” (Jewish En., “Darius I”). The following remarks in the En. Br. strengthen this view: “Darius in his inscriptions appears
as a fervent believer in the true religion of Zoroaster. But he was also a great statesman and organizer.

The time of conquests had come to an end; the wars which Darius undertook, like those of Augustus, only served the purpose of gaining strong natural frontiers for the empire and keeping down the barbarous tribes on its borders. Thus
Darius subjugated the wild nations of the Pontic and Armenian mountains, and extended the Persian dominion to the Caucasus; for the same reason he fought against the Sacae and other Turanian tribes”. The references in this quotation to Darius being a fervent believer in the true religion of Zoroaster, to his subduing the barbarous tribes on the borders, to his gaining strong natural frontiers for the empire, and to his fighting against the Sacae clearly point him out as the Dhu-l-qarnain of the Qur’ån.

86a. Maghrib al-shams, or the setting-place of the sun, signifies the western-most point of his empire, because going towards the west he could not go beyond it.
86b. The words in Arabic are ‘ain-in ƒami’at-in, which literally mean a black sea, ‘ain meaning an abundance of water, or a place in which water remains and collects, and ƒamiat means black mud (T, LL). The place referred to is no other than the Black Sea, as, Armenia being within the Kingdom of Persia, the Black Sea formed the northwestern boundary of the empire.

88a. Being a true follower of Zoroaster, the well-known Persian prophet, Darius seems to have invited these tribes to his religion.

90a. The three journeys alluded to seem to have been undertaken with the object of strengthening the frontiers of the empire, the most important of these being that spoken of in v. 93, the part of the frontier between the Caspian and the Black Seas, where the Caucasus afforded a natural protection against the attacks of the Scythians. Darius goes first westward to the Black Sea (vv. 85, 86). Then he undertakes an eastward journey — the land of the rising sun. The description of the people found here, a people who had no shelter from the sun, is a description of the barbarous aboriginal tribes on the shores of
the Caspian. The En. Br. says in the article on Media: “The names in the Assyrian inscriptions prove that the tribes in the Zagros and the northern parts of Media were not
Iranians nor Indo-Europeans, but an aboriginal population, like the early inhabitants of Armenia, perhaps connected with the numerous tribes of the Caucasus. We can see how
the Iranian element gradually became dominant: princes with Iranian names occasionally occur as the rulers of these tribes. But the Galae, Tapuri, Cadusii, Amardi, Utii, and
other tribes in Northern Media and on the shores of the Caspian, were not Iranians”

93a. The two mountains are the mountains of Armenia and Azarbaijan. The people settling there spoke a different language and could not understand the Iranian language.
94a. This verse brings us face to face with an all-important subject, viz., the identity of Gog and Magog. The Bible references to Gog and Magog are somewhat loose. In
Gen. 10:2 and 1 Chron. 1:5, “Magog is mentioned as the second son of Japheth, between Gomer and Madai, Gomer representing the Cimmerians and Madai the Medes.
Magog must be a people located east of the Cimmerians and west of the Medes.

But in the list of nations, Gen. 10, the term connotes rather the complex of barbarian peoples dwelling at the extreme north and north-east of the geographical survey covered by that chapter. ... In Ezek. 38:2 Magog occurs as the name of a country; in Ezek. 39:6 as that of a northern people, the leader of whom is Gog” (Jewish En., Art. “Gog and Magog”). “Josephus identifies them with the Scythians, a name which among the classical writers stands for a number of unknown ferocious tribes. According to Jerome, Magog was situated beyond the Caucasus near the Caspian Sea” (Jewish En.). The En. Br. considers the traditional identification of Gog and Magog with the Scythians to be “plausible”, and then adds: “This plausible opinion has been generally followed”, with this reservation, that the word may be applied to “any or all of the numerous but partially known tribes of the north; and any attempt to assign a more definite locality to Magog can only be very
hesitatingly made”.

All these writers have, however, not paid sufficient attention to the words of Ezek. 38:2: “Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal”. Tubal and
Meshech are almost always mentioned together, and their identification has been a task of great difficulty, so much so that a renowned Biblical critic suggests the names of certain
nations in South Palestine. But this contradicts the views of ancient writers like Josephus, who settle the Magog north of the Caucasus. If we go, however, to the north
of the Caucasus, we find still two rivers bearing the names of Tobal and Moskoa, on the latter of which is situated the ancient city of Moscow, and on the former the more recent
town of Tobolsk. It seems almost certain that these two rivers received their names from the two tribes of Ezek. 38:2, the Tubal and Meshech, and then gave their names to the two above-mentioned cities, thus keeping the names of these tribes.

This view is in accordance with the opinion of Josephus, who identifies Magog with the Scythians, for “throughout classical literature Scythia generally meant all regions to the north and north-east of the Black Sea, and a Scythian any barbarian coming from these parts”.
It is clear from the above that the name Magog stands for tribes which occupied territories to the north and north-east of the Black Sea, tribes which gave their names
directly or indirectly to the towns of Tobolsk and Moscow
There is, however, another point worth considering, and that is the gigantic effigies of Gog and Magog in Guildhall, London. “It is known,” says the En. Br., “that effigies
similar to the present existed in London as early as the time of Henry V”.

An explanation of this remarkable circumstance is given by Geoffrey of Monmouth: “Gaemot or Gaemagot (probably a corrupted form of Gog and Magog) was a giant who, along with his brother Gorineous, tyrannized in the western horn of England until slain by foreign invaders” (En. Br., Art. “Gog and Magog”). It is very difficult to speak with anything
bordering on accuracy about the early connections of different races, but the preservation of the effigies of Gog and Magog in England, which can be traced to a very early
period in English history, makes it probable that the Angles or the Saxons had in very ancient times some connection with the Scythians or other tribes living north of the
Caucasus or the Black Sea.

The relations of the different nations in early history are very
complicated, and it is out of place to enter into any such discussion here. But it may be noted that the Goths, who are considered to be the easternmost of the Teutonic races, are said to have migrated into Scythia (En. Br., “Goths”), which shows the existence of connection
between the two races. And again, “the Batharnae also, who in the third century B.C. invaded and settled in the regions between the Carpathians and the Black Sea, are
said by several ancient writers to have been Teutonic by origin, though they had largely intermarried with the native inhabitants” (En. Br., “Teutonic Peoples”).
It is thus clear that the ancestors of the present Teutonic and Slav races are the Gog and Magog spoken of in the Holy Qur’ån. The effigies of Gog and Magog in London and
the names of Tobal and Moskoa, occuring in the Bible, are clear indications of this fact.

Next we come to the statement that the tribes found by Darius between Azerbaijan and the Armenian mountains were constantly harassed by their northern neighbours, the
Scythians. History bears evidence to the truth of this statement. The Scythians, or, according to some writers, the Sacae, constantly troubled Asia. According to Herodotus
the Scyths ruled Media for twenty-eight years (En. Br., Art. “Scythia”). “About 512 Darius undertook a war against the Scythians ... The purpose of this war can only have
been to attack the nomadic Turanian tribes in the rear, and thus to secure peace on the northern frontier of the empire” (En. Br., Art. “Darius”). The portion which I give in
italics shows that Darius exerted himself to his utmost in securing peace on the northern frontier of his empire, where the Caucasus, bounded on both sides by the Black and Caspian Seas, afforded a natural protection.

The barrier referred to in this verse, and described in the verses that follow, is the famous wall at Derbent (Ar. Darband). An account of this wall is given by Muslim
geographers and historians, for instance, in Mara©id al-IΔΔilå‘ and Ibn al-Faqßh. The following account, however, taken from the Encyclopaedia Britannica, should be more
convincing: “Derbent or Darband, a town of Caucasia, in the province of Daghestan, on the western shore of the Caspian ... It occupies a narrow strip of land beside the sea,
from which it climbs up the steep heights inland ... And to the south lies the seaward extremity of the Caucasian wall (50 miles long), otherwise known as Alexander’s Wall,
blocking up the narrow pass of the Iron Gate or Caspian Gate (Portae Albanae, or Portae Caspae). This, when enitre, had a height of 29 feet and a thickness of about 10
feet, and with its iron gates and numerous watch-towers formed a valuable defence of the Persian frontier.” (Italics in the last sentence are mine, for which see the next footnote.) The misnomer Alexander’s Wall seems to have been due to the mistake made by Muslim historians in supposing Dhu-l-qarnain to be Alexander.

96a. The blocks of iron were needed for the iron gates in the wall, for which see the concluding lines of the last note.

98a. From the historical narration of the past, the subject is now changed to the future. Gog and Magog are described as two nations, and after describing the history of these nations, whose depredations on peaceful nations were brought to an end by Darius, we are now told that Gog and Magog will again be let loose in the latter days. In fact,
this is clearly foretold in another chapter of the same period: “when Gog and Magog are let loose, and they sally forth from every elevated place” (21:96). This is the only other occasion on which Gog and Magog are spoken of in the Holy Qur’ån.

The crumbling of the wall which withheld Gog and Magog for a time is thus explained by the Qur’ån itself, as the letting loose of Gog and Magog. Just as the building of the wall indicated the confinement of Gog and Magog to their own territorial bounds, the crumbling of the wall means that they will at some future time be let loose and they will then dominate the whole world. This domination is spoken of in the Ïadßth in various ways. According to one ƒadßth, “No one will have the power to fight against them” (Ms. 52:20).
According to another, “they will drink the water of the whole world” (KU, vol. 7, p. 2157). According to a third, God said: “I have created some of My servants whom no
one can destroy but Myself ” (KU, p. 3021).

As shown in 94a, the ancestors of Gog and Magog are the Slav and Teutonic races, and in the world-domination of Gog and Magog is thus clearly hinted the domination of the European nations over the whole world, and
the prophecy has thus found fulfilment in our days.

99a. A mighty conflict of the nations is clearly spoken of here, and the words no doubt refer to some catastrophe like that which is predicted in the Gospels in the words:
“For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning
of sorrows” (Matt. 24:7, 8).

The Qur’ån makes it clear that the reference in nation rising against nation is to the great European conflicts which we are witnessing nowadays. Gog and Magog, or the
European nations, having subdued the whole world, could not agree on the division of the spoils, and they are rushing at one another’s throats, and the whole world being subject
to them, their struggle has assumed the form of a world conflict. One World-War ends only to be followed by another. But if the first part of the verse speaks of the
destruction due to these wars, the second part raises a great hope. Will this great worldconflict
bring the world to an end?

Human efforts to restore the balance to the world are
a failure. But the Qur’ån tells us that a mighty Revolution will come about. That is what is meant by the blowing of the trumpet. This revolution will be a change in the mentality
of the nations. A silver lining is introduced in this dark picture by the words, then We shall gather them all together. The revolution would unite them; it would drive them to one common faith. Material benefits having turned man into the enemy of man, a spiritual awakening will, we are told, be brought about which will change the world entirely.

Instead of cutting one another’s throats men will learn to love one another, and they will all be but one nation. There is a broad enough hint here at the nation of Islåm, for there
is but one faith, the faith of Islåm, which has been able to weld diverse people into one whole.

The day of peace for this world will dawn with the dawning of the idea on the mind of man that there is only a single nation, the human nation, that lives on this earth:
“Mankind is a single nation” (2:213). And actually Islåm is the only religion in the world which has been successful in uniting different nations into one whole and in
obliterating distinctions of race and colour.

100a. These words complete the picture of the great conflict spoken of in the previous verse. It in fact describes the severity of the conflict, it will reduce the world to a
veritable hell. We have seen hell raging on this earth in World-War II.

What World-War III may bring, no one can say.
101a. The reason is given in these words why these disasters will be brought on man: These are people whose eyes are under a cover from My Reminder. Nay, they are
so estranged from God that they cannot even bear to hear His Reminder. So thoroughly have lust and greed engrossed the civilized world!

[zahida]

salaam
wao !!! too much for me to digest....lol....i had to read it twice to grasp :D .....thanks alot !