As Salaam 'Alaiykum wa Rahmatullah Brothers and Sisters,
My family and I had just gotten home from a Masjid that we Used To Attend on a regular basis a few years ago. A friend of ours had hosted an Iftar there and we were asked to come since we hadn't been there in so long.
To make a long story short, this night reminded me as to why we stopped going there to begin with (we hadn't been there in three or four years now). Far too many people there simply do not use their reason.
I have been thinking about something for the past few weeks now. The majority of the traditional and hadith minded muslims are heavily brainwashed and far too indoctrinated to know how to use their reason that Allah had blessed them with. Because of this, I have been thinking that maybe the Best course of action to create change is to seek Fresh Minds untainted and unbrainwashed by traditional Islam doctrine.
Consequently, I believe it is high time that we cease going to these sectarian masaajid and establish masaajid where GOD Alone and His Book, The Noble Quran, are the foundations. This is what I believe 9:107-110 is speaking about.
It is probably a better use of time, energy and resources to focus on Introducing Quranic Islam to people unaffected by N2I instead of trying to convince the people who follow N2I to use their reason, wake up and see the error of their ways.
Any thoughts on this?
Number Two Islam
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Arnold Yasin Mol
Number Two Islam
Salaam Damon,
Many people mail me about this problem in the mosques.
Personally I do visit mosques, last saturday I had given a speech for the Muslim youth organisation containing of 300 people.
These people want change. In Holland we mostly have Morroccons and Turks, and they do open up when you teach them things step by step. The youth is the future of Islam.
The elderly are too fixed in certain thinking which is logical.
The point is, I do pray with Sunnis, I go to mosques and so on. I do not say Salat is not prayer, what I show them is that it can mean much much more, that prayer is not the only meaning. This is when people pay attention. The same is with Hadith and Sunnah, I do not say these are mostly Persian concoctions, what I just do is only focus on the Quran without critizing the Hadith.
In this way you do not scare off people or get them angry, the only thing you do is show more options of understanding the Quran. This always attracts people. There is nothing with prayer, the only that is wrong, is that Salaat is ONLY understood as prayer, this is wrong.
Last night I had a discussion with a young Moroccon who had studied Arabic at the university and we also discussed Salat. We were discussing politics and I told them governments of Islamic countries follow the Western system of government instead of the Quranic system, they do not do Salat. When I explained to him what Salaat means in Classic Arabic and for example use verse 24:41 to show him how it fits in the Quran he lighted up.
He started to understand that Salat refers to following the whole System of Islam in every way, and thus also government. This opened his eyes much wider.
What Muslims do wrong is not immediately believe in rituals, what they do wrong is ONLY approaching the Quran from a ritual-religious point of view. What they must learn is the political-economic-social side of the Quran which is surpressed.
When they learn this side again, they will soon see more understandings.
This is how I do it, I tell them, Islam is a System. I tell them people have ignored the political side of the Quran because of the kings.
When you tell people they are wrong they will not listen, tell them there are more ways of approaching the Quran, they will open up. Anyway, that is my experience.
I show them how Islam is a guide to reality, to logic and reason. To modernization. I explain to the youth that scholars hold on to the tradition as they believe this is the only Muslim identity, but this has never been true, there are hundreds of cultures who approach Islam in their own way.
If the tafseers of the middle ages are correct, then why was it neccesary to preserve the Quran, why did God protect the Quran? We have the tafseers, so lets get rid of the Quran.
When I tell them this, they laugh as they know this is of course a stupid remark. So I then tell them the Quran is preserved so every generation can create their own approach and understanding.
This what they truly want in Holland and they are ready for it in many ways. We must use the Quran's way, Tanzeel, step by step revealing possibilities.
Many people mail me about this problem in the mosques.
Personally I do visit mosques, last saturday I had given a speech for the Muslim youth organisation containing of 300 people.
These people want change. In Holland we mostly have Morroccons and Turks, and they do open up when you teach them things step by step. The youth is the future of Islam.
The elderly are too fixed in certain thinking which is logical.
The point is, I do pray with Sunnis, I go to mosques and so on. I do not say Salat is not prayer, what I show them is that it can mean much much more, that prayer is not the only meaning. This is when people pay attention. The same is with Hadith and Sunnah, I do not say these are mostly Persian concoctions, what I just do is only focus on the Quran without critizing the Hadith.
In this way you do not scare off people or get them angry, the only thing you do is show more options of understanding the Quran. This always attracts people. There is nothing with prayer, the only that is wrong, is that Salaat is ONLY understood as prayer, this is wrong.
Last night I had a discussion with a young Moroccon who had studied Arabic at the university and we also discussed Salat. We were discussing politics and I told them governments of Islamic countries follow the Western system of government instead of the Quranic system, they do not do Salat. When I explained to him what Salaat means in Classic Arabic and for example use verse 24:41 to show him how it fits in the Quran he lighted up.
He started to understand that Salat refers to following the whole System of Islam in every way, and thus also government. This opened his eyes much wider.
What Muslims do wrong is not immediately believe in rituals, what they do wrong is ONLY approaching the Quran from a ritual-religious point of view. What they must learn is the political-economic-social side of the Quran which is surpressed.
When they learn this side again, they will soon see more understandings.
This is how I do it, I tell them, Islam is a System. I tell them people have ignored the political side of the Quran because of the kings.
When you tell people they are wrong they will not listen, tell them there are more ways of approaching the Quran, they will open up. Anyway, that is my experience.
I show them how Islam is a guide to reality, to logic and reason. To modernization. I explain to the youth that scholars hold on to the tradition as they believe this is the only Muslim identity, but this has never been true, there are hundreds of cultures who approach Islam in their own way.
If the tafseers of the middle ages are correct, then why was it neccesary to preserve the Quran, why did God protect the Quran? We have the tafseers, so lets get rid of the Quran.
When I tell them this, they laugh as they know this is of course a stupid remark. So I then tell them the Quran is preserved so every generation can create their own approach and understanding.
This what they truly want in Holland and they are ready for it in many ways. We must use the Quran's way, Tanzeel, step by step revealing possibilities.
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Naushad
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:01 pm
- Contact:
Number Two Islam
Salaam brother Damon,
I would very much agree with brother Arnold's approach. In addition if people start creating separate mosques for upholders of Quran (versus N2I) then its almost like creating yet another new sect which as we all know is not allowed as per Quranic guidance.
I would advice not to isolate yourself from the community. I know it is difficult but we have to be part of the community as they all are our muslim brothers and sisters. Insha-allah the correct approach will eventually start to make difference, specially in younger generation.
Best regards,
Naushad.
I would very much agree with brother Arnold's approach. In addition if people start creating separate mosques for upholders of Quran (versus N2I) then its almost like creating yet another new sect which as we all know is not allowed as per Quranic guidance.
I would advice not to isolate yourself from the community. I know it is difficult but we have to be part of the community as they all are our muslim brothers and sisters. Insha-allah the correct approach will eventually start to make difference, specially in younger generation.
Best regards,
Naushad.
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Damon
Number Two Islam
As Salaam 'Alaiykum Brother Arnold,
Agreed. It is the younger people of the Ummah I would like to place heavy focus upon as they are out future. Saving them will be the same as saving out future.
Needless to say, it was the older people who I had fixed in my mind as I was explaining to you all very briefly of how our night went at this particular Mosque. Also, keep in mind that I was speaking of my experiences at one Mosque in particular.
Yes, I do as well.
You and I are certainly on the same page with this one. I not only focus on the Quran (without criticizing the hadith) I also place emphasis on learning and utilizing the Language of the Quran and making use of Tasreef to allow the Quran to explain itself. This is what seems to get their attention in my personal experiences. Surprisingly enough, tasreef is not as widely known as I would think it to be. Another thing, I have been distributing Lane's Arabic Lexicon to the muslims here. It seems to be catching on really good and the feedback that I have been getting lately seems promising. For the past three years I have been giving away FREE copies of the translation done by free-minds. But since I believe QXP to be a better and more appropriate rendition of the Quran, I think I would rather start getting copies of that to give away in the future.
I agree with your understanding and approach on this issue.
My Sentiments Exactly!!! To my mind, this seems to be the meat of the issue right there. My suggestion of establishing a Masjid was not so that we isolate ourselves from the rest of the Ummah (which is shirk because it is creating more division) but in order to have a Masjid that will place proper focus on these issues as they should be. If I were to succeed in establishing such a Mosque, all brothers and sisters in the Ummah will be welcomed there. No one will be turned away. Sisters can wear hijab or not wear hijab. The believers can be upholders of hadith or not. It wouldn't matter to me. We have to obey Allah's injunctions mentioned in 3:103-105. In this Masjid, there will be no sectarian rhetoric or polemics. No US vs. THEM type of mentality and there will be absolutely no bashing of traditional Islam. I would love to see a Masjid established where the Imam of that Masjid places proper focus on the Socio-Economic and Political aspects of the Quran as opposed to approaching the Quran as a religous book from which religeous rituals are derived.
Where I live, the majority of the Masaajid were established by people who share a group mentality. A sectarian way of thinking. The people here in my city do not go to a particular Mosque because of convenience of location, but due to their acceptance of the dominant school of thought of that Mosque. In the same line, most people here will NOT go to certain Masaajid because they so happen to NOT accept the dominant school of thought that is prevelant in them. This to me is also tantamount to sectarianism. The dominant school of thought in each of these Masaajid are not based on Quran, but are based on the opinions and views of the scholars and so-called Ulema that these Masaajid pledge their undying allegiance to.
The Mosque that I went to the other night (the one that I was talking about in my opening post) are all followers of Imam Warith Deen Mohammed. The majority of them worship the ground he walks on. I know for a FACT that at least half of that community do not read the quran, let alone know what the Quran has to say. Anything they know about Islam, they learn from reading W.D. Mohammed's books and articles and listening to his speeches and passing it along to the others in their community. This is wrong to me.
I agree with you. This should probably be our main focus as we reach out to them.
Actually, I agree with you as this has been my experience as well. I do not tell people that they are wrong. I do not tell them that their beliefs are wrong or faulty. In my discussions with them I simply focus on what the Quran says and how I understand it and I do not comment at all on hadith, sunnah or the scholars. If the discussion shows the potential to get out of hand or the other person is fixed on dragging me into a discussion on hadith and sunnah, I simply cut the conversation short with them and accept that this person and myself do not see eye to eye on said issue. I am not going to lose any sleep over it. Just agree to disagree.
This is a pretty good approach. The next opportunity to come up I will give it a try.
I agree with you brother. You are indeed wise Arnold. Thank you for your comments.
The elderly are too fixed in certain thinking which is logical.
Agreed. It is the younger people of the Ummah I would like to place heavy focus upon as they are out future. Saving them will be the same as saving out future.
Needless to say, it was the older people who I had fixed in my mind as I was explaining to you all very briefly of how our night went at this particular Mosque. Also, keep in mind that I was speaking of my experiences at one Mosque in particular.
The point is, I do pray with Sunnis, I go to mosques and so on.
Yes, I do as well.
what I just do is only focus on the Quran without critizing the Hadith.
You and I are certainly on the same page with this one. I not only focus on the Quran (without criticizing the hadith) I also place emphasis on learning and utilizing the Language of the Quran and making use of Tasreef to allow the Quran to explain itself. This is what seems to get their attention in my personal experiences. Surprisingly enough, tasreef is not as widely known as I would think it to be. Another thing, I have been distributing Lane's Arabic Lexicon to the muslims here. It seems to be catching on really good and the feedback that I have been getting lately seems promising. For the past three years I have been giving away FREE copies of the translation done by free-minds. But since I believe QXP to be a better and more appropriate rendition of the Quran, I think I would rather start getting copies of that to give away in the future.
I do not say Salat is not prayer, what I show them is that it can mean much much more, that prayer is not the only meaning.
There is nothing wrong with prayer, the only thing that is wrong, is that Salaat is ONLY understood as prayer,
I agree with your understanding and approach on this issue.
What Muslims do wrong is not immediately believe in rituals, what they do wrong is ONLY approaching the Quran from a ritual-religious point of view. What they must learn is the political-economic-social side of the Quran which is surpressed.
My Sentiments Exactly!!! To my mind, this seems to be the meat of the issue right there. My suggestion of establishing a Masjid was not so that we isolate ourselves from the rest of the Ummah (which is shirk because it is creating more division) but in order to have a Masjid that will place proper focus on these issues as they should be. If I were to succeed in establishing such a Mosque, all brothers and sisters in the Ummah will be welcomed there. No one will be turned away. Sisters can wear hijab or not wear hijab. The believers can be upholders of hadith or not. It wouldn't matter to me. We have to obey Allah's injunctions mentioned in 3:103-105. In this Masjid, there will be no sectarian rhetoric or polemics. No US vs. THEM type of mentality and there will be absolutely no bashing of traditional Islam. I would love to see a Masjid established where the Imam of that Masjid places proper focus on the Socio-Economic and Political aspects of the Quran as opposed to approaching the Quran as a religous book from which religeous rituals are derived.
Where I live, the majority of the Masaajid were established by people who share a group mentality. A sectarian way of thinking. The people here in my city do not go to a particular Mosque because of convenience of location, but due to their acceptance of the dominant school of thought of that Mosque. In the same line, most people here will NOT go to certain Masaajid because they so happen to NOT accept the dominant school of thought that is prevelant in them. This to me is also tantamount to sectarianism. The dominant school of thought in each of these Masaajid are not based on Quran, but are based on the opinions and views of the scholars and so-called Ulema that these Masaajid pledge their undying allegiance to.
The Mosque that I went to the other night (the one that I was talking about in my opening post) are all followers of Imam Warith Deen Mohammed. The majority of them worship the ground he walks on. I know for a FACT that at least half of that community do not read the quran, let alone know what the Quran has to say. Anything they know about Islam, they learn from reading W.D. Mohammed's books and articles and listening to his speeches and passing it along to the others in their community. This is wrong to me.
When they learn this side again, they will soon see more understandings.
I agree with you. This should probably be our main focus as we reach out to them.
When you tell people they are wrong they will not listen, tell them there are more ways of approaching the Quran, they will open up. Anyway, that is my experience.
Actually, I agree with you as this has been my experience as well. I do not tell people that they are wrong. I do not tell them that their beliefs are wrong or faulty. In my discussions with them I simply focus on what the Quran says and how I understand it and I do not comment at all on hadith, sunnah or the scholars. If the discussion shows the potential to get out of hand or the other person is fixed on dragging me into a discussion on hadith and sunnah, I simply cut the conversation short with them and accept that this person and myself do not see eye to eye on said issue. I am not going to lose any sleep over it. Just agree to disagree.
If the tafseers of the middle ages are correct, then why was it neccesary to preserve the Quran, why did God protect the Quran? We have the tafseers, so lets get rid of the Quran.
When I tell them this, they laugh as they know this is of course a stupid remark. So I then tell them the Quran is preserved so every generation can create their own approach and understanding.
This is a pretty good approach. The next opportunity to come up I will give it a try.
We must use the Quran's way, Tanzeel, step by step revealing possibilities.
I agree with you brother. You are indeed wise Arnold. Thank you for your comments.
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Damon
Number Two Islam
Salaam Brother Naushad,
Yes I agree with it as well. It is a very solid approach. I am wondering if that approach cannot still be implemented even if a Masjid is established where that approach is heavily emphasised? In other words, establish a Mosque but do not isolate yourself from the rest of the Ummah. Continue to frequent the other masaajid and reach out to the believers in the masaajid.
I agree with you brother. In fact, this is what I was saying in my last reply to brother Arnold. Different Mosques where I live were established based on a group mentality/sectarian/US vs. THEM way of thinking which is why I would not want to create a mosque for upholders of Quran versus N2I. This mosque will be created for all believers no matter what school of thought they believe in.
In this mosque, there will be no bashing of N2I (because this will contribute to divisionism and it will Definately create a Quran Upholders versus N2I scenario), traditional muslims will be welcomed there without having to believe the same way the others do, no one will be turned away for their beliefs, no one will be required to share some type of group way of thinking and their will be no official school of thought in the mosque. In other words, I do not wish to establish a mosque and do the same thing as Masjid Tucson has done. Masjid Tucson, in my opinion, is another sectarian mosque as it was establsihed under sectarian auspices. I believe that Quran 9:107-110 warns us not to do this.
In this mosque that I am envisioning the focus will not only be on the socio-economic and political aspects of the Deen, but it will serve as the base/physical foundation from which the Deen will be established in the land with heavy emphasis on the alternative understanding of Salaat and Zakaat. Unlike the people who make up the Ahlul Quran sect, I do not say that upholders of N2I are not muslims and I do call them my brothers and sisters.
You are right brother Naushad. If establishing such a mosque as I am envisioning has the potential of creating more division, then I definately will not do it. I would not want to be another Masjid Tucson. I would like to ponder on it some more and try to weigh the pros and cons of the possibility and do more research of the Quran.
I really appreciate your input and advice.
Salaam,
Damon.
I would very much agree with brother Arnold's approach.
Yes I agree with it as well. It is a very solid approach. I am wondering if that approach cannot still be implemented even if a Masjid is established where that approach is heavily emphasised? In other words, establish a Mosque but do not isolate yourself from the rest of the Ummah. Continue to frequent the other masaajid and reach out to the believers in the masaajid.
In addition if people start creating separate mosques for upholders of Quran (versus N2I) then its almost like creating yet another new sect which as we all know is not allowed as per Quranic guidance.
I agree with you brother. In fact, this is what I was saying in my last reply to brother Arnold. Different Mosques where I live were established based on a group mentality/sectarian/US vs. THEM way of thinking which is why I would not want to create a mosque for upholders of Quran versus N2I. This mosque will be created for all believers no matter what school of thought they believe in.
In this mosque, there will be no bashing of N2I (because this will contribute to divisionism and it will Definately create a Quran Upholders versus N2I scenario), traditional muslims will be welcomed there without having to believe the same way the others do, no one will be turned away for their beliefs, no one will be required to share some type of group way of thinking and their will be no official school of thought in the mosque. In other words, I do not wish to establish a mosque and do the same thing as Masjid Tucson has done. Masjid Tucson, in my opinion, is another sectarian mosque as it was establsihed under sectarian auspices. I believe that Quran 9:107-110 warns us not to do this.
In this mosque that I am envisioning the focus will not only be on the socio-economic and political aspects of the Deen, but it will serve as the base/physical foundation from which the Deen will be established in the land with heavy emphasis on the alternative understanding of Salaat and Zakaat. Unlike the people who make up the Ahlul Quran sect, I do not say that upholders of N2I are not muslims and I do call them my brothers and sisters.
I would advice not to isolate yourself from the community. I know it is difficult but we have to be part of the community as they all are our muslim brothers and sisters. Insha-allah the correct approach will eventually start to make difference, specially in younger generation.
You are right brother Naushad. If establishing such a mosque as I am envisioning has the potential of creating more division, then I definately will not do it. I would not want to be another Masjid Tucson. I would like to ponder on it some more and try to weigh the pros and cons of the possibility and do more research of the Quran.
I really appreciate your input and advice.
Salaam,
Damon.
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Arnold Yasin Mol
Number Two Islam
Salaam Aleikum,
The whole purpose of being Muslim is benefitting Mankind in its totality, see 13:17 and 3:110.
Indeed it would be good if set up Meeting points, Masjids, that are focussed on this goal.
I am already busy with creating a Publishing house for Progressive writings. This will be realized in about 3 to 6 months after all the paperwork is done. Then we will have a Publishing agency run by progressive Muslims who are focussed on professionally publishing all progressive writings.
In this way the writers do not need to go to publishers or print the books themselves. We will help with the copyrights and the funding. We also are running translation projects to translate books into English and other languages. For example, we are translating Dr.Shahroor's "Al-Kitab wa-l-Quran" into English and want to translate classic works as Sir Syed Khan's Quran Tafseer and Tazkia by Allama Mashriqi and so on.
I am already creating a platform for progressive Muslims that are focussed on benefitting mankind, it will be a sister site of Ourbeacon.
Mail me at my personal hotmail, I can show you the action plan and the people involved.
The whole purpose of being Muslim is benefitting Mankind in its totality, see 13:17 and 3:110.
Indeed it would be good if set up Meeting points, Masjids, that are focussed on this goal.
I am already busy with creating a Publishing house for Progressive writings. This will be realized in about 3 to 6 months after all the paperwork is done. Then we will have a Publishing agency run by progressive Muslims who are focussed on professionally publishing all progressive writings.
In this way the writers do not need to go to publishers or print the books themselves. We will help with the copyrights and the funding. We also are running translation projects to translate books into English and other languages. For example, we are translating Dr.Shahroor's "Al-Kitab wa-l-Quran" into English and want to translate classic works as Sir Syed Khan's Quran Tafseer and Tazkia by Allama Mashriqi and so on.
I am already creating a platform for progressive Muslims that are focussed on benefitting mankind, it will be a sister site of Ourbeacon.
Mail me at my personal hotmail, I can show you the action plan and the people involved.
-
Damon
Number Two Islam
Salaam 'Alaiykum Brother Arnold,
This is EXACTLY what I was driving at. Not only do I believe that this SHOULD be done, but I also believe that it CAN be done without being a contributor to further division and discord among the Ummah. We would simply focus on doing the work that Allah has commanded us to do and not involve ourselves with the things that feed into division and sectarianism.
However, I still take Brother Naushad's advice seriously. We should always evaluate ourselves and our actions to make sure that we are not contributing to further discord among the Ummah.
This sounds good. I can't wait to see it.
Keep on keeping on brother. 8)
Salaam,
Damon.
The whole purpose of being Muslim is benefitting Mankind in its totality, see 13:17 and 3:110.
Indeed it would be good if set up Meeting points, Masjids, that are focussed on this goal.
This is EXACTLY what I was driving at. Not only do I believe that this SHOULD be done, but I also believe that it CAN be done without being a contributor to further division and discord among the Ummah. We would simply focus on doing the work that Allah has commanded us to do and not involve ourselves with the things that feed into division and sectarianism.
However, I still take Brother Naushad's advice seriously. We should always evaluate ourselves and our actions to make sure that we are not contributing to further discord among the Ummah.
I am already creating a platform for progressive Muslims that are focussed on benefitting mankind, it will be a sister site of Ourbeacon.
This sounds good. I can't wait to see it.
Keep on keeping on brother. 8)
Salaam,
Damon.