Dear Arnold,
I understand you started addressing brother Mateen's questions. When you can, please do answer my question that I posted previously which I am copying below again.. Thanks.
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Dear Arnold,
Thank you for your reply. Based on what you said, I feel that the N2I understanding that Prophet Mohammad did have multiple wives at any given time is not incorrect in principle. Even though there is a difference in the understanding about the nature of relationship that these marriage contracts established between Prophet and women in dire need but theoratically he did have multiple valid marriage contracts at a given time (and hence the N2I understanding - multiple wives at once). Is my understanding correct?
If the above is true then I feel it is not totally right of uncle Shabbir to say that he only had one wife at a time because that would be incorrect.
Thanks,
Naushad.
Multiple Wives of Prophet Mohammad.
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Naushad
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UmeAimon
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Multiple Wives of Prophet Mohammad.
Asalam o Elikom all,
Thank you again brother Arnold for your responses. I agree and understand your point of veiw on contractual marraiges that might have occured and can still under special cirumstances!
And I agree with brother Ahmed about marraiges of prophet pbuh. There is simpler way of understanding which I will inshahAllah write in next post. Just being very carefull about writting Quran verses this time as I only have surah's and verse numbers for my own quick references and have to see every time what complete verse is.
Now a question to brother Ahmed Mateen
What do you say about the verse 4:128 in which Allah recommends no harms in keeping reaching friendly terms with one. As obviously He confirms justice is not possible when there are two?
And the verse 24:03, Where Allah says fornicating men should “MARRY” only fornicaing women.
jazakAllah
Thank you again brother Arnold for your responses. I agree and understand your point of veiw on contractual marraiges that might have occured and can still under special cirumstances!
And I agree with brother Ahmed about marraiges of prophet pbuh. There is simpler way of understanding which I will inshahAllah write in next post. Just being very carefull about writting Quran verses this time as I only have surah's and verse numbers for my own quick references and have to see every time what complete verse is.
Now a question to brother Ahmed Mateen
What do you say about the verse 4:128 in which Allah recommends no harms in keeping reaching friendly terms with one. As obviously He confirms justice is not possible when there are two?
And the verse 24:03, Where Allah says fornicating men should “MARRY” only fornicaing women.
jazakAllah
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Arnold Yasin Mol
Multiple Wives of Prophet Mohammad.
Salaam brother,
A couple can decide IF they make this part of the deal or not. Thus they can decide themselves if they make it a full marriage contract with sexual relationship or only a social contract without social relationship. And the social-contract can always be made into a full marriage contract on a later term when both sides decide too. But the questions you mentioned are meant for the full-marriage contracts as social contracts, because who says being fair to all wives refers to sexual relations? Doesn't this also refer to social responsibilties, health and so on? It means all families and individuals under your care must be treated equally with the same care and investment.
And yes, maybe a female can make social contracts with them, why not?
To make myself again clear, the Nikaah with multiple wives in my best understanding is that it can be done in two levels:
1. As a full-marriage contract with sexual relationship.
2. Only as a social-contract without sexual relationship but with full responsibility for the female, children and their health, education and wealth. As would have been with a full-marriage contract. Also the social contract can of course be always changed into a full-marriage contract.
There is no black and white with this, either are possible for the couple I believe as the word Nikaah allows it. This is understandable as you can not force love on someone, this has to grow. But the social responsibility remains, so people can always resort to only a social contract.
Otherwise we force the women and males into having sexual relationship, because of not wanting to have poverty. Thus it is more a forced marriage to escape poverty.
OK, Your idea is: Nikah=Social-Contract (without sex-relations) right?
A couple can decide IF they make this part of the deal or not. Thus they can decide themselves if they make it a full marriage contract with sexual relationship or only a social contract without social relationship. And the social-contract can always be made into a full marriage contract on a later term when both sides decide too. But the questions you mentioned are meant for the full-marriage contracts as social contracts, because who says being fair to all wives refers to sexual relations? Doesn't this also refer to social responsibilties, health and so on? It means all families and individuals under your care must be treated equally with the same care and investment.
And yes, maybe a female can make social contracts with them, why not?
To make myself again clear, the Nikaah with multiple wives in my best understanding is that it can be done in two levels:
1. As a full-marriage contract with sexual relationship.
2. Only as a social-contract without sexual relationship but with full responsibility for the female, children and their health, education and wealth. As would have been with a full-marriage contract. Also the social contract can of course be always changed into a full-marriage contract.
There is no black and white with this, either are possible for the couple I believe as the word Nikaah allows it. This is understandable as you can not force love on someone, this has to grow. But the social responsibility remains, so people can always resort to only a social contract.
Otherwise we force the women and males into having sexual relationship, because of not wanting to have poverty. Thus it is more a forced marriage to escape poverty.
1. In such social contract Why the limit = 4 if I can help 10?
2. Why the question of being JUST ?
3. Why if fear of being unjust then ONE?
4. If I want to help a widow do I need a contract (Nikah) for that?
5. Can a female who wants to support other widows can also have contract (Nikah) with them ?
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UmeAimon
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Multiple Wives of Prophet Mohammad.
Asalam o Elikom all,
I agree with everyone here that we need Quran only to understand itself.
The Ahkamats of Quran are verses very basic and fundamental are straightforward and don’t need many meanings to be explained… I just take them as they are!
No need to add subtract words which are never there and we suppose or wish they were.
4:24
(also forbidden to your are ) women who are already married….
Here is my understanding on this topic and Allah knows the best!
I believe Prophet pbuh might had more than one wife at a time or may be just one at a time.
The usual understanding is that prophet PBUH had up to nine, eleven or so wives at a time. Why should I not believe he had just maximum limit of what Allah ordained for anyone under special circumstances but for him for extended period too because of his position at that time?
The reason given for more than four wives theory is by quoting the verse 33:50
O prophet behold we have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their marital gifts; and those women who have sought asylum with you and signed the marital contract. Also lawful for you were the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts who migrated with you; and lawful for you is a believing woman who offers herself freely to the prophet and whom the prophet might be willing to marry. This is but a privilege for you, and not for other believers. We have already made known what We have decreed regarding their wives and women who have sought asylum in their homes. This arrangement is designed to ease any social difficulties on you. Allah is Absolver of imperfections, Merciful .
and of course the twisted history.
But leaving history aside how we reached there from Quran? Are we to leave the rest of the Quran aside?
Does this verse or any other verse mention the number of prophet’s wives?
Does it mention that prophet married all at once?
Prophet’s wives were allowed to leave and could it be that some might had left and why not?
Only thing it tells it that Allah gave the Prophet special privilege which was not given to others.
So how we reached to any conclusion and do we have to?
Yes! So let’s start from the beginning…
Four marraiges facility!
The only verse 4:03 allowing men to marry up to four women, mentions word orphans first and women among them...why was this so?
Obviously it meant mothers of orphans or the orphaned(by husband or family) women, but the fact is the subject emphasized is orphans not just women.
The reason is that those women especially with children are the most venerable either because they have limited resources for living or simply because they cannot WORK. With children to take care of, it’s worst.
And this facility is under special circumstances only!! Special circumstances because other wise it’s Muslims governments duty to provide for them isn’t it!
Their consent is also necessary and needless to say age factor remains.
Allah also tells us not to marry for lust doesn’t He? So it’s more of a duty at that time which can also be avoided!
This point about orphans has been again emphasized and confirmed in the verse..
4:127
They ask you for further instruction concerning women say(o Prophet);Allah does instruct you about them and (remember)what had been rehearsed onto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of the women (or orphaned women) who you wish not to give what is ordained and still wish to marry them, and also about the children who are weak and suppressed that you stand firm for the justice to orphans. There is not a good deed that you, but Allah is well acquainted therewith
The verse regarding women fearing desertion 4:128, comes right after it, which means the same situation is being discussed (which was reminded of, multiple marriages with orphans and their rights)
AND the verse about the fact that one can NEVER DO JUSTICE, so should not leave one hanging, 4:129, is again in sequence ..
Clearly the subject is explaining when such situation has developed some complications are bound to occur.
This fact also makes it clearer why marrying up to four can not be allowed under normal situations, as Allah never likes unjust which He affirms will happen and is the reason for the next order!!
If we look at the order of verses about marriage the last direction/ order/recommendation, whatever you may call it, about who to marry (other than about marriage to unbelievers) for all is this
24:32
Marry those among you who are single (widowed, bachelor divorced) and those still being kept as slaves among you, male or female such of them as are fit to marry; if they are poor, Allah will enrich them with His bounty, for, Allah is of Infinite means, All Knowing.
Agreeing that this verse is an order to all mentioned, to marry, will imply marriage is mandatory “a fard” on every single person wouldn’t it?
Is that it? I don’t think so ..it’ll rather put people in difficulty specially slaves and widows of passed age who even at marriageable age don’t want to or just can’t, as it is talking about all kind of singles male and female.
Why not go for the simple straight forward meaning. This is not even a mere suggestion.
This verse still is an order given as to which are the people who are to marry rather what could be implied earlier, and is putting an end to that special facility, under normal circumstances which many people don’t like to admit.
The next verse on marriages only confirms this connotation...
33:50
O prophet behold we have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their marital gifts; and those women who have sought asylum with you and signed the marital contract. Also lawful for you were the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts who migrated with you; and lawful for you is a believing woman who offers herself freely to the prophet and whom the prophet might be willing to marry. This is but a privilege for you, and not for other believers. We have already made known what We have decreed regarding their wives and women who have sought asylum in their homes. This arrangement is designed to ease any social difficulties on you. Allah is Absolver of imperfections, Merciful
Please keep in mind that
• There is no mention about numbers how many can you marry or that you can marry more than four, and Allah reminds He knows what He had appointed for others…All laws up till now starting from 4:03 to 24:32.(The verses for women with non believing husbands comes way after wards in 60:10,11 for all)
• None of the relations/states mentioned in this verse or others for prophet to wed are restricted for other believers!!
Then what is it that is just for the prophet and not for other believers? The only thing left is what was there mentioned in 24:32 or we would rather go for made up stories of many many wives!
This 33:50 verse only legalizes the marriages of the prophet done after the special situation and after 24:32, to ease the social difficulties he faced as a prophet.
The proceeding verse 33:51 is about the facility for the prophet’s wives to leave if they choose to and approval of the reconciliation.
AND the fact the restriction being put in the very next verse 33:52, of not marrying or even substituting anymore from “now on”, only confirms that it was just mater of time and social need!
Seem quite simple isn’t it?
The thing is that Allah was never out of words especially in case of orders!
So why we don’t take what is said clearly as it is?
Is it because we are still under the effect of man written history or still living in a man dominated society?
If there are any objections, please let me know.
jazakAllah
I agree with everyone here that we need Quran only to understand itself.
The Ahkamats of Quran are verses very basic and fundamental are straightforward and don’t need many meanings to be explained… I just take them as they are!
No need to add subtract words which are never there and we suppose or wish they were.
4:24
(also forbidden to your are ) women who are already married….
Here is my understanding on this topic and Allah knows the best!
I believe Prophet pbuh might had more than one wife at a time or may be just one at a time.
The usual understanding is that prophet PBUH had up to nine, eleven or so wives at a time. Why should I not believe he had just maximum limit of what Allah ordained for anyone under special circumstances but for him for extended period too because of his position at that time?
The reason given for more than four wives theory is by quoting the verse 33:50
O prophet behold we have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their marital gifts; and those women who have sought asylum with you and signed the marital contract. Also lawful for you were the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts who migrated with you; and lawful for you is a believing woman who offers herself freely to the prophet and whom the prophet might be willing to marry. This is but a privilege for you, and not for other believers. We have already made known what We have decreed regarding their wives and women who have sought asylum in their homes. This arrangement is designed to ease any social difficulties on you. Allah is Absolver of imperfections, Merciful .
and of course the twisted history.
But leaving history aside how we reached there from Quran? Are we to leave the rest of the Quran aside?
Does this verse or any other verse mention the number of prophet’s wives?
Does it mention that prophet married all at once?
Prophet’s wives were allowed to leave and could it be that some might had left and why not?
Only thing it tells it that Allah gave the Prophet special privilege which was not given to others.
So how we reached to any conclusion and do we have to?
Yes! So let’s start from the beginning…
Four marraiges facility!
The only verse 4:03 allowing men to marry up to four women, mentions word orphans first and women among them...why was this so?
Obviously it meant mothers of orphans or the orphaned(by husband or family) women, but the fact is the subject emphasized is orphans not just women.
The reason is that those women especially with children are the most venerable either because they have limited resources for living or simply because they cannot WORK. With children to take care of, it’s worst.
And this facility is under special circumstances only!! Special circumstances because other wise it’s Muslims governments duty to provide for them isn’t it!
Their consent is also necessary and needless to say age factor remains.
Allah also tells us not to marry for lust doesn’t He? So it’s more of a duty at that time which can also be avoided!
This point about orphans has been again emphasized and confirmed in the verse..
4:127
They ask you for further instruction concerning women say(o Prophet);Allah does instruct you about them and (remember)what had been rehearsed onto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of the women (or orphaned women) who you wish not to give what is ordained and still wish to marry them, and also about the children who are weak and suppressed that you stand firm for the justice to orphans. There is not a good deed that you, but Allah is well acquainted therewith
The verse regarding women fearing desertion 4:128, comes right after it, which means the same situation is being discussed (which was reminded of, multiple marriages with orphans and their rights)
AND the verse about the fact that one can NEVER DO JUSTICE, so should not leave one hanging, 4:129, is again in sequence ..
Clearly the subject is explaining when such situation has developed some complications are bound to occur.
This fact also makes it clearer why marrying up to four can not be allowed under normal situations, as Allah never likes unjust which He affirms will happen and is the reason for the next order!!
If we look at the order of verses about marriage the last direction/ order/recommendation, whatever you may call it, about who to marry (other than about marriage to unbelievers) for all is this
24:32
Marry those among you who are single (widowed, bachelor divorced) and those still being kept as slaves among you, male or female such of them as are fit to marry; if they are poor, Allah will enrich them with His bounty, for, Allah is of Infinite means, All Knowing.
Agreeing that this verse is an order to all mentioned, to marry, will imply marriage is mandatory “a fard” on every single person wouldn’t it?
Is that it? I don’t think so ..it’ll rather put people in difficulty specially slaves and widows of passed age who even at marriageable age don’t want to or just can’t, as it is talking about all kind of singles male and female.
Why not go for the simple straight forward meaning. This is not even a mere suggestion.
This verse still is an order given as to which are the people who are to marry rather what could be implied earlier, and is putting an end to that special facility, under normal circumstances which many people don’t like to admit.
The next verse on marriages only confirms this connotation...
33:50
O prophet behold we have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their marital gifts; and those women who have sought asylum with you and signed the marital contract. Also lawful for you were the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts who migrated with you; and lawful for you is a believing woman who offers herself freely to the prophet and whom the prophet might be willing to marry. This is but a privilege for you, and not for other believers. We have already made known what We have decreed regarding their wives and women who have sought asylum in their homes. This arrangement is designed to ease any social difficulties on you. Allah is Absolver of imperfections, Merciful
Please keep in mind that
• There is no mention about numbers how many can you marry or that you can marry more than four, and Allah reminds He knows what He had appointed for others…All laws up till now starting from 4:03 to 24:32.(The verses for women with non believing husbands comes way after wards in 60:10,11 for all)
• None of the relations/states mentioned in this verse or others for prophet to wed are restricted for other believers!!
Then what is it that is just for the prophet and not for other believers? The only thing left is what was there mentioned in 24:32 or we would rather go for made up stories of many many wives!
This 33:50 verse only legalizes the marriages of the prophet done after the special situation and after 24:32, to ease the social difficulties he faced as a prophet.
The proceeding verse 33:51 is about the facility for the prophet’s wives to leave if they choose to and approval of the reconciliation.
AND the fact the restriction being put in the very next verse 33:52, of not marrying or even substituting anymore from “now on”, only confirms that it was just mater of time and social need!
Seem quite simple isn’t it?
The thing is that Allah was never out of words especially in case of orders!
So why we don’t take what is said clearly as it is?
Is it because we are still under the effect of man written history or still living in a man dominated society?
If there are any objections, please let me know.
jazakAllah
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Ahmed Mateen
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:33 pm
- Contact:
Multiple Wives of Prophet Mohammad.
Salaam Brother Arnold,
Thanks for clarification brother. So now I get you, you are saying that this can be another possibility of Marriage. Am I right?
I agree with you for instance and put my undrestanding in the verse again. Would you please help me finding some answers:
The questions I mentioned in my post are not my questions, these are the questions of the Verse 4:3. So if you believe those questions are meant for a full-marriages then I believe we cannot derive any other relation from the verse. May be I have missed something, please correct me.
Still some more q's and y's:
1. What to call this relationship, still marriage and husband and wife or something else?
2. If being fair doesn't refer to love and sex-relations but just ecnomical issue then why Allah says you wouldn't be able to be just no matter what you do?
Note: The question of being just is really important when you have children from different wives. Because its really difficult in that case to be just. All mothers love their children the most and its really crucial for a father to have a balance in such situations. Does this note make any sense? So isn't the question of being just is for the full marriage?
3. Why the restriction of 4 if I can help 10? (This is for the full marriage as you said)
4. Why if fear of being unjust then ONE? (This is also for full marriage)
From question 4 as you can see that the question of being just refer to full marriage. if not then refer to question 2.
Am also not looking for a black and white thing. I have just applied this logic to the verse and found some questions, and I hope in the end we would reach to a conclusion InshaAllah. So this is purely meant for understanding and not for any arguements.
May Allah increase all of us in knowledge.
Mateen
Thanks for clarification brother. So now I get you, you are saying that this can be another possibility of Marriage. Am I right?
I agree with you for instance and put my undrestanding in the verse again. Would you please help me finding some answers:
But the questions you mentioned are meant for the full-marriage contracts as social contracts
The questions I mentioned in my post are not my questions, these are the questions of the Verse 4:3. So if you believe those questions are meant for a full-marriages then I believe we cannot derive any other relation from the verse. May be I have missed something, please correct me.
Still some more q's and y's:
1. What to call this relationship, still marriage and husband and wife or something else?
2. If being fair doesn't refer to love and sex-relations but just ecnomical issue then why Allah says you wouldn't be able to be just no matter what you do?
Note: The question of being just is really important when you have children from different wives. Because its really difficult in that case to be just. All mothers love their children the most and its really crucial for a father to have a balance in such situations. Does this note make any sense? So isn't the question of being just is for the full marriage?
3. Why the restriction of 4 if I can help 10? (This is for the full marriage as you said)
4. Why if fear of being unjust then ONE? (This is also for full marriage)
From question 4 as you can see that the question of being just refer to full marriage. if not then refer to question 2.
Am also not looking for a black and white thing. I have just applied this logic to the verse and found some questions, and I hope in the end we would reach to a conclusion InshaAllah. So this is purely meant for understanding and not for any arguements.
May Allah increase all of us in knowledge.
Mateen
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Ahmed Mateen
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:33 pm
- Contact:
Multiple Wives of Prophet Mohammad.
Salaam Sister UmeAimon,
I couldn't really get your question about the verse 4:128. But in the husband and wife conflicts like on many other places Allah advises us to deal the matter in the best possible way. Because it directly effects the children and thus should be dealt with care. In 4:35 it says:
4:35 (Families and communities must adopt a proactive approach regarding a husband and a wife in discord). If you fear a breach between a husband and wife, appoint two arbiters, one from his family and one from her family. If they decide to reconcile, Allah will help them get together. Verily, Allah is Knower, Aware. (2:228-234, 4:3, 4:19, 4:35, 4:128, 33:49, 58:1, 65:1-4).
Quran gives protection to both husband and wife. Wheather it's the rebellion from the women or ill-treatment from the husband, in both cases Quran gives us clear instructions what should we do in such situations.
If the rebellion is from woman it says:
4:34 If you experience rebellion from women, and they stand up against you, apprise them of possible consequences. Next, leave them in their resting places apart from you. And keep admonishing them with examples that they stop rebelling. If they pay heed to you, seek not a way against them. Allah is Most High, Great.
And if it is from the man's side:
4:128 If a woman experiences ill-treatment from her husband or fears that he might turn away from her, there should be no hesitation in taking corrective action and resolving the matter between them amicably. Conciliation is best. Selfishness is ever present in human psyche. And if you take care to benefit each other and be mindful of Allah, verily Allah is ever Aware of all you do. (Allah, the Cognizant shows you the best way (2:228-234, 4:3, 4:19, 4:35, 4:128, 33:49, 58:1, 65:1-4)).
I hope that is what you asked.
Your second question was: <<And the verse 24:03, Where Allah says fornicating men should “MARRY” only fornicaing women.>>
I dont believe this verse is about the marriage. Nikah on this particular place refer to sexual relations but not to the marriage. Uncle Shabbir has beautifully explained it in QXP as:
24:3 The adulterer couples with none but an adulteress who worships her desire. And with the adulteress none couples but the adulterer who worships his desire. And it is forbidden to the believers. (24:26, 45:23).
[Fornication and adultery are a form of idol worship for, such people submit to their desires. The word AW here is explanatory. AW = Or + That is + Namely + Call it + In other words. AW appears in this format instead of 'or' in many places in the Qur’an such as 23:6, 24:3, 25:62. Nikah, in the lexicon, applies to genuine wedlock as well as to sexual relations between a man and a woman outside wedlock, depending on the context. The very common rendering of this verse to the effect that an adulterer is allowed to marry only an adulteress or idolatress, and vice versa, is absolutely erroneous and contrary to the Big Picture of the Qur’an which lays great emphasis on reform and forgiveness. And it defies all sense. Whereas many translators have maintained that such men and women will end up marrying their like. This is obviously the result of not bearing in mind the meaning of AW and Nikah, and going against common sense. Finally, the Book of Allah does not downgrade people once they have repented or received penalty. Oh, yet another point! After painting an X-rated scenario of Madinah as if adultery/fornication was going on right and left and coming to public knowledge, in the very life-time of the exalted Prophet, the Imams of the old come up with a horrible joke. They insult Hazrat Ali that he decreed for an adulterer to receive a hundred stripes to fulfill the Command in the Qur'an, and then stoned him to death to fulfill the command of Hadith!
The so-called Imams also contend that while an unmarried person will receive lashes, a married person must be condemned to death by stoning! Did they not prefer their own whims to the Word of God? ]
And thanks for your input on the issue sister, I haven't read your second post yet, I'll give my feedback after I read it.
Salaam,
Mateen
I couldn't really get your question about the verse 4:128. But in the husband and wife conflicts like on many other places Allah advises us to deal the matter in the best possible way. Because it directly effects the children and thus should be dealt with care. In 4:35 it says:
4:35 (Families and communities must adopt a proactive approach regarding a husband and a wife in discord). If you fear a breach between a husband and wife, appoint two arbiters, one from his family and one from her family. If they decide to reconcile, Allah will help them get together. Verily, Allah is Knower, Aware. (2:228-234, 4:3, 4:19, 4:35, 4:128, 33:49, 58:1, 65:1-4).
Quran gives protection to both husband and wife. Wheather it's the rebellion from the women or ill-treatment from the husband, in both cases Quran gives us clear instructions what should we do in such situations.
If the rebellion is from woman it says:
4:34 If you experience rebellion from women, and they stand up against you, apprise them of possible consequences. Next, leave them in their resting places apart from you. And keep admonishing them with examples that they stop rebelling. If they pay heed to you, seek not a way against them. Allah is Most High, Great.
And if it is from the man's side:
4:128 If a woman experiences ill-treatment from her husband or fears that he might turn away from her, there should be no hesitation in taking corrective action and resolving the matter between them amicably. Conciliation is best. Selfishness is ever present in human psyche. And if you take care to benefit each other and be mindful of Allah, verily Allah is ever Aware of all you do. (Allah, the Cognizant shows you the best way (2:228-234, 4:3, 4:19, 4:35, 4:128, 33:49, 58:1, 65:1-4)).
I hope that is what you asked.
Your second question was: <<And the verse 24:03, Where Allah says fornicating men should “MARRY” only fornicaing women.>>
I dont believe this verse is about the marriage. Nikah on this particular place refer to sexual relations but not to the marriage. Uncle Shabbir has beautifully explained it in QXP as:
24:3 The adulterer couples with none but an adulteress who worships her desire. And with the adulteress none couples but the adulterer who worships his desire. And it is forbidden to the believers. (24:26, 45:23).
[Fornication and adultery are a form of idol worship for, such people submit to their desires. The word AW here is explanatory. AW = Or + That is + Namely + Call it + In other words. AW appears in this format instead of 'or' in many places in the Qur’an such as 23:6, 24:3, 25:62. Nikah, in the lexicon, applies to genuine wedlock as well as to sexual relations between a man and a woman outside wedlock, depending on the context. The very common rendering of this verse to the effect that an adulterer is allowed to marry only an adulteress or idolatress, and vice versa, is absolutely erroneous and contrary to the Big Picture of the Qur’an which lays great emphasis on reform and forgiveness. And it defies all sense. Whereas many translators have maintained that such men and women will end up marrying their like. This is obviously the result of not bearing in mind the meaning of AW and Nikah, and going against common sense. Finally, the Book of Allah does not downgrade people once they have repented or received penalty. Oh, yet another point! After painting an X-rated scenario of Madinah as if adultery/fornication was going on right and left and coming to public knowledge, in the very life-time of the exalted Prophet, the Imams of the old come up with a horrible joke. They insult Hazrat Ali that he decreed for an adulterer to receive a hundred stripes to fulfill the Command in the Qur'an, and then stoned him to death to fulfill the command of Hadith!
The so-called Imams also contend that while an unmarried person will receive lashes, a married person must be condemned to death by stoning! Did they not prefer their own whims to the Word of God? ]
And thanks for your input on the issue sister, I haven't read your second post yet, I'll give my feedback after I read it.
Salaam,
Mateen
-
UmeAimon
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:11 am
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Multiple Wives of Prophet Mohammad.
Asalam o Elikom,
Thanks for your reply brother Mateen.
Just wanted know your point of view that’s all. :) I agree with brother Arnold about the verse 4:34, it’s about women social behavior in general. What’s considered as an unnatural revolt is not explained so left for society to decide and so we can discuss.
I am sorry I didn’t say 4:128 with 4:129. My point was, in those cases when justice is not possible in any matter whether of economical, sexual realtion or time; Allah wants them to come on such terms where they can amicably resolve the problem. This can only be done by letting go of certain rights, but still be considered as husband and wife, and not considered, in otherwise normal marriages. Otherwise it's not unjustice. So there is provision for special contracts under of course special circumstances.
Regarding verse 24:32 I still have problem which I wish to resolve.
I have no problem taking Nikah in the meaning of what normally is thought as the opposite of the word. Normally Nikah is what makes sexual relation legal!
But the thing is the overall meaning of the verse that doesn’t make any sense.
OK so we take it as fornicating men only make sexual contact with fornicating women and vice versa….
Well of course, that's why they are called adulterer in the first place isn’t it! So here Allah is telling us the definition of what an adulterer is? That doesn’t make sense!
Another angle from this interpretation if it means they only keep sexual relations with so and so. But a married man or woman also cheats and fornicates and keeps relations with their respective legal partners don’t they? Is it to say that they don’t or that they never have innocent wives or husbands on whom they are cheating and still keeping their relations?
An objection raised for the normal meaning is
Well I don’t think so ..See Allah never blames/ punishes an innocent.
The verse is talking about adulterer/ress NOT about those who have repented OR got punishment for it!
It’s just like a when a person is an idolater Allah says several times he is going to hell!
That is not to say even when he repents and comes on the right path.
A thief or an adulterer after being punished or repenting will not be called a thief or an adulterer, will they?…
So this is for those who keep on doing because are not or cannot be punished for some reason like at that time when no proper Islamic government was there and don’t repent …because other wise they are “Momineen” right as in the same verse it is said so!
So why not? Allah is just telling not to marry any one like those who you know ARE such adulterers!!!
Will anyone like to marry anyone with no regard for mariage or relations unless s/he himself is like that or doesn't mind??
Pease tell me where I don’t understand right Anyone
jazakAllah to all.
Thanks for your reply brother Mateen.
Just wanted know your point of view that’s all. :) I agree with brother Arnold about the verse 4:34, it’s about women social behavior in general. What’s considered as an unnatural revolt is not explained so left for society to decide and so we can discuss.
I am sorry I didn’t say 4:128 with 4:129. My point was, in those cases when justice is not possible in any matter whether of economical, sexual realtion or time; Allah wants them to come on such terms where they can amicably resolve the problem. This can only be done by letting go of certain rights, but still be considered as husband and wife, and not considered, in otherwise normal marriages. Otherwise it's not unjustice. So there is provision for special contracts under of course special circumstances.
Regarding verse 24:32 I still have problem which I wish to resolve.
I have no problem taking Nikah in the meaning of what normally is thought as the opposite of the word. Normally Nikah is what makes sexual relation legal!
But the thing is the overall meaning of the verse that doesn’t make any sense.
OK so we take it as fornicating men only make sexual contact with fornicating women and vice versa….
Well of course, that's why they are called adulterer in the first place isn’t it! So here Allah is telling us the definition of what an adulterer is? That doesn’t make sense!
Another angle from this interpretation if it means they only keep sexual relations with so and so. But a married man or woman also cheats and fornicates and keeps relations with their respective legal partners don’t they? Is it to say that they don’t or that they never have innocent wives or husbands on whom they are cheating and still keeping their relations?
An objection raised for the normal meaning is
is contrary to the Big Picture of the Quran which lays great emphasis on reform and forgiveness does not consider the concept of acceptance
Well I don’t think so ..See Allah never blames/ punishes an innocent.
The verse is talking about adulterer/ress NOT about those who have repented OR got punishment for it!
It’s just like a when a person is an idolater Allah says several times he is going to hell!
That is not to say even when he repents and comes on the right path.
A thief or an adulterer after being punished or repenting will not be called a thief or an adulterer, will they?…
So this is for those who keep on doing because are not or cannot be punished for some reason like at that time when no proper Islamic government was there and don’t repent …because other wise they are “Momineen” right as in the same verse it is said so!
So why not? Allah is just telling not to marry any one like those who you know ARE such adulterers!!!
Will anyone like to marry anyone with no regard for mariage or relations unless s/he himself is like that or doesn't mind??
Pease tell me where I don’t understand right Anyone
jazakAllah to all.
-
Ahmed Mateen
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:33 pm
- Contact:
Multiple Wives of Prophet Mohammad.
Salaam Sister,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your time. Yes I agree with you.
Allah is just telling not to marry any one like those who you know ARE such adulterers!!!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your time. Yes I agree with you.